Becoming the next F1 designer

[riff_raff]

JT,

I worked on the Space Shuttle program at Rockwell/Boeing for a few years (and enjoyed it). The guy that sat in the office next to me was the engineer responsible for the Shuttle's tires, which are supplied by Michelin. Michelin claims that the shuttle MLG tires are the most high performance tires ever produced. The MLG tires must be replaced after each landing of the shuttle.

As for structural analysis of tires, I know a PhD that does FEA and was involved in the original development of the NASTRAN code. So he obviously knows his business. He says the most challenging work he ever did was developing an FEM process for an OEM tire company (Cooper maybe?).

You're right, modeling non-linear structures like tires is a real challenge.

riff_raff

[autogyro]

If I remember correctly Ross Brawn started by operating a milling machine at March. Shop floor is an essential IMO, it is usualy where most of the good ideas come from anyway.

[ashf1mclaren]

thanks for more informative perspectives, i have wanted to work in the aerospace industry for a while, i was very small when i started to have a fascination with aeroplanes, and cars & formula 1, gradually as i got older and understood more, i realised quite quickly that planes & cars where related in many ways, this strengthen my passions in both.

a response to autogyro: you are correct in ross brawn being a milling machinist, before that i believe he work/had an apprenticeship at the UK atomic research center but left to follow his passion in motor sport.

[autogyro]

thanks for more informative perspectives, i have wanted to work in the aerospace industry for a while, i was very small when i started to have a fascination with aeroplanes, and cars & formula 1, gradually as i got older and understood more, i realised quite quickly that planes & cars where related in many ways, this strengthen my passions in both.

a response to autogyro: you are correct in ross brawn being a milling machinist, before that i believe he work/had an apprenticeship at the UK atomic research center but left to follow his passion in motor sport.

Yep, as I often say, genius does what it must, talent does what it can.

[polarboy]

[quote="ashf1mclaren"]i can understand what everyone's points are, there are a few i would like to clear up first though,
jersey tom: sorry if i sounded a bit like " Adrian newey doesn't believe in cad" i ment to say he doesn't personally use it, he prefers to draw pencil to paper.

polarboy: i can see your point there are what sound boring jobs but you cannot expect to arrive at the top, maybe designing brake ducts could lead to design the front wing and so on, if i where him i would have gone for it, but i am some what of a workaholic.

When my friend an i were contracting we were doing 100/110 hrs a week thats what the f1 workaholic rate is like
have a look at all the top designers an where they started an you will see that most of them are the oldschool.I have a team picture from when i started in f1 an there are 54 people in the picture 1 of whom happens to be senna an thats every single member of the team from drivers to cleaner
Ten years later an the team picture has 140 people in it,fast forward 15 years to the team we were at an the teams in the hundreds.As the teams have grown the things that helped create the oldschool have grown and made sure that people cant develop in that way again
Its not like you will be the only one doing the ducts there would be several of you an a couple of guys doing the tooling design and it will be the same with wings or rad ducts or bodywork or whatever subsection your in.Its very hard to get on and stand out but if you want to be in f1 that much go for it but as someone who has been in the game nearly 30 years you will get more
satisfaction an stand more chance of getting on when you get there if you try other formula an build up to f1

[PlatinumZealot]

ashf1mclaren,

While doing engineering work in F1 sounds really glamorous and exciting, the reality is that working in an F1 engineering environment is less demanding than working in aerospace, in many respects. The main thing that makes the F1 environment such a challenge is the very short design cycle times. But with regards to outright performance in structures, materials, aerodynamics, controls, dynamics, reliability, etc., aerospace engineering is far more demanding.

Over 25 years I've worked in racing, aerospace and the automotive industry. The work that I enjoyed the most (and paid the best) was in aerospace.

riff_raff

So what happened?

I really have to ask you a question: is it worth it doing an aerospace masters over say Energy/Themrmal fluid sciences?
Reach a point in my life where i do not know what I want to do next. Sort of like the Original poster..

[ConsFW]

ashf1mclaren,

... But with regards to outright performance in structures, materials, aerodynamics, controls, dynamics, reliability, etc., aerospace engineering is far more demanding.

Over 25 years I've worked in racing, aerospace and the automotive industry. The work that I enjoyed the most (and paid the best) was in aerospace.

riff_raff

riff_raff,

I'm surprised to read that. I'm a ME working in aerospace as a structures designer (satellites) and I'm bored out of my mind. It's almost all paperwork and very little actual design. I agree that the pay is good but the creative challenges and opportunity for new ideas/designs is minimal. In commercial spacecraft - because of the high stakes - out of the box thinking is pretty much discouraged. There isn't much room for new ideas anyway. The goal is to minimize costs and risks and maximize profits so any new idea has to be similar to something that has already been proven.

Can you expand on the projects that you've worked on over the years and why you've enjoyed them? I'm very interested in reading about how your experience has been so different from mine. I'm seriously considering changing careers, or at the very least moving out of the aerospace field.

[riff_raff]

ConsFW,

I'd have to agree, designing satellite bus structures is pretty much cut-and-dried. Just get the weight down and get the structural modes right.

I work on mechanical systems, right now it's aircraft power transmissions. Very interesting stuff, and it's all new design. In the past I've done structures for Boeing on the 757 and 737, accessory gearboxes for Rolls-Royce, and actuators for the Space Shuttle.

You'll be likely to do more new design if you work at a smaller aerospace company.

riff_raff

[marcush.]

Mercedes GP is already implementing the industry standard of OEMs in the car business:
http://www.mercedes-gp.com/en/#/category/recruitment/

industrial placement of students for limited projects... earn near nothing work flatout ....a time with a F1 team on the rise(?) may be a very good career stepstone...if your arrival coincedes with the turn of fortunes at that outfit..

[riff_raff]

marcush,

Nice link. Notice how the interns are rewarded with "invaluable experience with an F1 team", while the other positions include bonuses, benefits, and a company car?

Regards,
riff_raff

[xpensive]

There you go riff, a company car for an engineer, F1 must be the only area for that to happen.

I have long since given up any dreams of sharing my humble skills with that business, but I came pretty close once, when I was working for this Austrian outfit in the US. During a halfway business dinner in 1995 I was asked by this Austrian VP how I saw my future professional career, where I could clearly see political implications beween PA and Austria right there, I responded; "Designing F1 cars for Peter Sauber".

Apparently, those Austrians had connections, why it became a topic of discussion later on, but nothing more than that.

[marcush.]

exp ..I know for sure there is one more area for company cars for engineers...prove is the admittedly small black 4door in front of my house.. ..
quite good to be reminded now and then that one should appreciate the benefits he gets .

[mep]

When you work as a student just 13months in a company you should not really expect any bonuses or cars. How can you deserve them?
It's ok when they pay you enough money to survive and teach you plenty of things.
When you do well you have chances to stay in the team if not you have at least a very big point on your CV. I guess most young students are happy just with this.

In topics like this one argument comes up very soon:

"You will earn less money"

Yea maybe you will but there is more in life than just money.
When you do a ordinary job money is the deciding factor but when you go into motorsports you don't work for money alone anymore.

Btw: I am not working in motorsports (yet ) but I also got a company car.
Even when I think its a stupid idea to give a motorsport enthusiast a car for free.

[marcush.]

I would go one step further.If you need to be in F1 AND have extraordinary skills to contribute to a team they will pay you otherwise you will be snapped up by someone else rather quickly.
so those who do not earn decent money there are either lacking the unique abilities (lots of people show similar ..)or they lack in passion maybe (orare prepared to accept too much compromise to stay involved)
Before being married and having to stand up for children you might be prepared to
earn low wages or even wait unaccepable time for your earnings just to go racing .
I did.
But when reality is demanding regular income and not insecurity racing quickly drops out of a sensible frame of possible work.
As we are speaking of THE NEXT F1 designer..I´m sure the guy needs a lot of dedication an a will to give up almost everything else PLUS the genius plus the hands on ability aquired in a racing environment plus the education in university for aircraft related engineering...lack one of of these incrediaents will be equivalent of the career not grounding to a halt sooner or later.

[mep]

I am sure when somebody has extraordinary skills his payment will rise very quickly but first he has to deliver.
Propably the student with the best grades will get that internship but do grades mean that he is best for that job?

At least in general this should be like that. I am sure there are also many examples where people have extraordinary payment but no skills. Don't know how they got to there positions but somehow they got it.

On some point they are not judged anymore what payment they have just what they achieved. For example Newey has not the highest payment but the highest success
Gascoyne has very high payment but what has he achieved?