Group Lotus buys Renault F1 Team

[CHT]

even some AMG guy has joined them....

It would explain a great many things.

This whole Group Lotus thing is run on nothing but hot air. Proton simply cannot afford what Bahar's silly ambitions want and I see he's managed to sweet-talk the ignorant Chapmans who have no connection to AC in any way other than the name.

I still maintain that all Fernandes has to do is sit and wait.

Proton/Group Lotus will have a better reason to invest in F1 than Tony Fernandez AirAsia, because of Lotus board of directors have already approved the ambitious road car plan, and Proton is eager to look for a technology partner for their compact car buisiness.

In terms of ROI, I believe that it will be cheaper for Group Lotus to buy into an established team than to build one from scratch. Team lotus might have done well among the new teams, but that can either be seens as they are good, or the other teams are crap. And Team Lotus will have to pray that Virgin and HRT are around next season or else they will end up being the back marker throughout 2011.

Without Proton's and Malaysia government money behind Tony, Team Lotus will not have money to bank roll their ambitious plan of fighting for points next season.

[wesley123]

you forget about Air Asia and the money from Fernandes himself...

[FW17]

Which makes it even more mysterious that one manufacturer went against everrybody else's wisdom about a year ago,
four little indians moving out, but one coming in?

Renault will soon announce that they will stick aroung for two seasons more, but that's it, Ferrari will make good on their
promise not to compete with an I4, which leaves the three pointed star to fight for the glory with RBR-VW and FI.

If manufacturers find it difficult to market their cars in the real world F1 is not responsible for it. They made the decission to pour in $300 mill running the entire team when they could have spent just $100 mill on the engines for 3 teams. They just should not be allowed come and go as they please and hold the sport ransom.

F1 would have been lot better with a budget cap than the state you predict will be in. 1989 had just Honda, Ferrari, Ford Cosworth, Judd, Lamborghini and Yahmah, dont know how you will rate that against the current season.

[xpensive]

1989 also displayed development-friendly engine-rules, which could have inspired the manufacturers to show up with V8s, V10s, V12s and even an F12 and a W12, which didn't converge to a V10 and later a V8, until MrM decided it should be that way.

Telling every engine engineer xactly what to do, an I-4 with limitations on pretty much every conceivable parameter, is hardly going to inspire many manufacuturers to get involved. Unless it is a format suitable to their marketing.

Funny the WMSC didn't opt for a VR5 layout when at it?

But on topic, I believe that Renault found themselves a much smarter way of getting out than the others, didn't they?

[CHT]

you forget about Air Asia and the money from Fernandes himself...

Tony Fernandes wealth and AirAsia is still not in the same league as Dietrich Mateschit RedBull and Vijay Mallya Kingfisher. There is no chance that Tony will bank roll this team by himself. He and AirAsia will definitely be better off as a sponsors rather than a team owner.

[Richied76]

I still think the best thing to do would be to limit power & weight of the engine. And that it must be a block used in a production car from one of the manufactures. Stick a limit of say 650bhp (including KERS). That way the only real advantage you could have would be through fuel efficiency and torque. That way we would either see road car engines developed more for efficency OR a couple of car makers realeasing HOT versions of there models to get the blocks homologated. It would also be a good way to encorage the development of KERS. The more power it makes, the less you have to find from your engine. You could save fuel,(smaller tank & weight) increase reliability ect ect.

If by 2013 Kers can kick out 120bhp+ then you have only to find 530bhp from the engine. Cosworth and other engine builders..Spoon, Neil browns, redline ect could get in in the act. No longer would you need a manufacture to spend massive outlay. Companys like VW, Honda, even Peugeot could supply the blocks to tuning companys to prep for F1. This of corse would have to have some bend in the regulations due to the engine being a structual part in an F1 car.

I think i'm not explaining what i mean very well so sorry. But from the Lotus (team lotus?) point of view..They could go up to Mitsubishi say and ask....
"can we use your 1.6lt from the colt"
Mitubishi- "yeah go on then...do your worst"
Lotus "thankyou very much, going to take it to rally art to have it tuned"

Mitubishi gets its name on the car..so does Rally art. Lotus pays £5mill a year for engines.

[segedunum]

Proton/Group Lotus will have a better reason to invest in F1 than Tony Fernandez AirAsia, because of Lotus board of directors have already approved the ambitious road car plan, and Proton is eager to look for a technology partner for their compact car buisiness.

One cannot fathom where this 'ambitious road car plan' has come from. Proton isn't making enough money as things stand. It's as simple as that.

Without Proton's and Malaysia government money behind Tony, Team Lotus will not have money to bank roll their ambitious plan of fighting for points next season.

Proton don't have any money to put behind anything. I think I've repeated that enough. The Malaysian government haven't suddenly made Proton wealthy. Tony Fernandes's operations are far, far larger and more profitable and he probably has more sway with the Malaysian government.

[segedunum]

But on topic, I believe that Renault found themselves a much smarter way of getting out than the others, didn't they?

Indeed they have, and they've actually won championships over the past ten years and got something out of it which no other manufacturer can boast. Other manufacturers should have taken note of what happened after Renault won in 2005 and 2006. Renault's board shrugged their shoulders and said "So what?" because it wasn't helping them sell any more cars. In short, they couldn't see any use for the team even when it was winning.

At least they haven't pumped billions into a team and canned it like Toyota did, or worse, in Honda's case invest 100 million to keep a team going that ended up being acquired by a rival car company.

[Giblet]

1989 also displayed development-friendly engine-rules, which could have inspired the manufacturers to show up with V8s, V10s, V12s and even an F12 and a W12, which didn't converge to a V10 and later a V8, until MrM decided it should be that way.

Correct me if I am wrong, and I might be just that, but weren't all the teams going to V10's anyways as they offered the best power and fuel mileage vs the 12's and 8's?

I know they were mandated and all, but I thought even Ferrari with their thirsty 12's were making 10's of their own free will to compete with the might of Renault and Honda.

That was when i was first getting into the sport so I much of the rules were a blur.

[xpensive]

...
At least they haven't pumped billions into a team and canned it like Toyota did, or worse, in Honda's case invest 100 million to keep a team going that ended up being acquired by a rival car company.

Or made complete arses of themselves like the Bavarians did, having to pay for a team called "BMW Sauber Ferrari"?

[timbo]

1989 also displayed development-friendly engine-rules, which could have inspired the manufacturers to show up with V8s, V10s, V12s and even an F12 and a W12, which didn't converge to a V10 and later a V8, until MrM decided it should be that way.

Correct me if I am wrong, and I might be just that, but weren't all the teams going to V10's anyways as they offered the best power and fuel mileage vs the 12's and 8's?

I know they were mandated and all, but I thought even Ferrari with their thirsty 12's were making 10's of their own free will to compete with the might of Renault and Honda.

Yes. Although V10 went out as clear favorite only after 3.0L displacement was mandated. With 3.5L V12s were favorite in terms of raw power.

[CHT]

Proton/Group Lotus will have a better reason to invest in F1 than Tony Fernandez AirAsia, because of Lotus board of directors have already approved the ambitious road car plan, and Proton is eager to look for a technology partner for their compact car buisiness.

One cannot fathom where this 'ambitious road car plan' has come from. Proton isn't making enough money as things stand. It's as simple as that.

Without Proton's and Malaysia government money behind Tony, Team Lotus will not have money to bank roll their ambitious plan of fighting for points next season.

Proton don't have any money to put behind anything. I think I've repeated that enough. The Malaysian government haven't suddenly made Proton wealthy. Tony Fernandes's operations are far, far larger and more profitable and he probably has more sway with the Malaysian government.

AirAsia is a profitable company, and Tony is rich, however he will not be able to bank roll a F1 team, which cost min 60 to 100m per year, without Proton and Malaysia government sponsorship money.

FYI, Proton is owned by Khazanah Nasional Berhad, an investment arm of Malaysia government, which also own the Malaysia Airlines, a direct competitor of AirAsia. Hence I have to disagree with you that, Tony or AirAsia is more capable than Proton to sway the government.

As you can see, Proton is not just an ordinary automotive company, it is a government company and a national pride for Malaysia, so rest assure that Proton will not go belly up because of Lotus ambitions, nor will they run out of cash because of F1 either.

As far as 1Malaysia goes, I think the dream is over, Proton has left, Fauzy (their Malaysia driver) has left, so will the Malaysia government.

[segedunum]

FYI, Proton is owned by Khazanah Nasional Berhad, an investment arm of Malaysia government, which also own the Malaysia Airlines, a direct competitor of AirAsia. Hence I have to disagree with you that, Tony or AirAsia is more capable than Proton to sway the government.

It really doesn't matter what investment company Proton is owned by. The fact is that their sales, revenue and profits don't match up with their ambitions and are dwarfed by Fernandes's group of companies.

As you can see, Proton is not just an ordinary automotive company.

No, it's less than ordinary. They produce junk that generates little money. When you invest you invest because there is some payoff later on. Proton has never paid off.

It's totally incorrect to state that Proton are closer to the Malaysian government than Fernandes and they will somehow magically continue to invest in a car company that is already running on empty and a luxury car division that has a pretty miniscule market. To be honest, I would get my own company house in order before I ever bankrolled a Formula 1 team.

[segedunum]

Or made complete arses of themselves like the Bavarians did, having to pay for a team called "BMW Sauber Ferrari"?

Yer, I knew there's one I'd missed.

[CHT]

It really doesn't matter what investment company Proton is owned by. The fact is that their sales, revenue and profits don't match up with their ambitions and are dwarfed by Fernandes's group of companies.

How rich or profitable Tony Fernandes group of comapanies is, is irrelevant because this is not Team AirAsia or Team Fernandes and Tony will not sacrifice his business just to proof a point in F1. Why is Khazanah (who has an investment portfolio of over US$25 billion) ownership in Proton not have a effect on the government?

No, it's less than ordinary. They produce junk that generates little money. When you invest you invest because there is some payoff later on. Proton has never paid off.

It's totally incorrect to state that Proton are closer to the Malaysian government than Fernandes and they will somehow magically continue to invest in a car company that is already running on empty and a luxury car division that has a pretty miniscule market. To be honest, I would get my own company house in order before I ever bankrolled a Formula 1 team.

Fix It Again Toni, cars were junk too, but they do own Ferrari. The reason why Proton can managed to survive despite selling junks is purely because of Malaysia government support in the domestic market, and the same reason why I say that Malaysia government will support Group Lotus in the F1 venture.

If you own a car company, then you should do what VW did and not waste money in F1.

Anyway, time will decide if Tony or Proton have the financial power to survive in F1.