Good read.Giblet wrote:There was a great read on Pitpass with someone from Cosworth and he talks a lot about engine parity, and how close they really are.
Would be well worth a read.
You really do delight in replying to things I've already replied to in order to try and pretend that what I've written didn't happen, don't you? The article he's referencing is probably this from Sam Michael:JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Good read. And he sys exactly what must the people on this thread are saying. Renault are not short in power
We've dealt with these issues JET. I'll repeat that the fuel efficiency argument is crap because if you have the power you turn the engine down. It's not an advantage. In fact, the Mercedes engine was only 0.05 kg of fuel worse off per lap so the Mercedes is actually the most fuel efficient for the horsepower on offer:...Renault power unit because of it's properties, ie fuel effieciency, packaging and heat dissipation.
Where are you getting this tosh that the Renault is only down by a couple of horsepower?Some people arguing that a motor is better simply because it has a couple of HP...
I'm afraid this doesn't show anything. The reason why the Renaults did well there was because they didn't have a horsepower deficit on those circuits compared to other teams and it showed that both Renault and Red Bull have good chassis. The 'driveability' of the engine where there is no measure for it has nothing to do with it being down on power.timbo wrote: You know, this year we have heard many times that Renault have best driveability. But does it really? IMO there's two races where it could be seen. First one is Monaco where we've seen 3 Renault cars on top-3 places of the grid.
I've dealt with this already. The Renaults obviously sacrificed downforce through the corners to minimise drag, and you can see that as Alonso closes right up on Petrov, and we also need to discount Renault having a better F-duct in the end than anyone else.But the most startling one was Abu-Dhabi race where both Renault cars managed to defend their positions easily on the long straights with little to no top-speed advantage.
Renault fell behind there as well. Like I said, it's no use trying to bring other variables into this.It should also be noted that RBR's apparent weakness on high-speed circuits (Monza and Motreal) may stem from their aero configuration...
I don't know what you mean by 'efficient with their downforce' means but if you mean that it generates more drag then I'll point out that Renault fell back by the same margin at Monza. The Red Bull also isn't magically going to generate more drag there than it does at other tracks.SiLo wrote:When people mention monza, is it possible the RB isn't that efficient with their downforce?
segedunum wrote: No it isn't a good read because it's an opinion of Sam Michael - who would obviously like a free advantage to continue over rival teams. Let's deal in figures, shall we?
Mark Gallagher of Coswroth wrote:"When certain other manufacturers have complained this year that they ought to have a retune, or they ought to be given the opportunity to become as good as best engine in the paddock, I think that's against probably one or two measures; typically brake horsepower. The reality is if you look at all the engines in the paddock some have good horsepower, some have good fuel consumption and some have good degradation figures. Once you start introducing all of these metrics into the equation you build up quite a broad spread of capability across all the engines. I think the fact the championship battle was being fought out between three of the engines - Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault - and that Cosworth has been able to provide Williams with a competitive engine such as they've been able to qualify, more often than not, certainly since Valencia, into Q3, and obviously secure that pole position... I think one of the remarkable things is that for all the complaints you will hear from people from time to time the reality is the engine formula works extremely well and the engines are very closely matched.
You think VW will provide better engines than Renault in 2013 ? Maybe... but let me remind you that the Renault engines, before these stupid freezing regulations, were always ones of the bests... The only thing that caused them loose the 'power war' is money; Renault reduced its budget considerably in 2007.I look forward to Red Bull getting VW engines in 2013 with a potential locked in advantage, and then we'll see what people say then.
Even at Monza it is not a single factor.segedunum wrote:It doesn't show what you want it to show I'm afraid. If you go to one circuit where horsepower is he overriding factor and you fall several places behind there's only one variable. It's as simple as that.
But it is not the only factor important for racing.I'll repeat that trying to even up the Renault engine on factors like fuel efficiency or 'driveability' is meaingless. Power on a dyno is the only equalisation factor.
The drag plays it's role at the top speed. While getting out of the corners is about torque and traction. If you watched where Kubica caught Kobayashi and where Hamilton did, you'd see that Kubica made it much earlier. Alonso closes behind Petrov at the end of the straight, while out of hairpin Petrov had a clear advantage.I've dealt with this already. The Renaults obviously sacrificed downforce through the corners to minimise drag, and you can see that as Alonso closes right up on Petrov, and we also need to discount Renault having a better F-duct in the end than anyone else.
Not so clear cut. Yes, in Monza, but in Montreal Kubica was 5th in Q1 and than 4th in Q2 and than fell back in Q3 because of he used prime tyres.Renault fell behind there as well. Like I said, it's no use trying to bring other variables into this.
Yes it is. If you don't have power there you won't be able to mask it. I have a feeling people still see what they want to see there.timbo wrote:Even at Monza it is not a single factor.
It's the most important defining factor in an engine, and more importantly it has been deemed so for the purposes of equalisation - which is why equalisation is not happening.But it is not the only factor important for racing.
Red Bull and Renault's drag is not going to be significantly worse than any other team. Once again we're getting people trying to stretch other variables.....The drag plays it's role at the top speed.
This has nothing to do with engine power I'm afraid, and as such, is nonsense.While getting out of the corners is about torque and traction.
That's got nothing to do with judging engine power I'm afraid.Not so clear cut. Yes, in Monza, but in Montreal Kubica was 5th in Q1 and than 4th in Q2 and than fell back in Q3 because of he used prime tyres.
