The relative benefits of a pull rod suspension

[SiLo]

They obviously have their reasons for using an interim car for the first test, and it obviously doesn't impact them that much not using the new car otherwise they would of pushed the launch date forward.

When you think about it, the cars won't change much from last year in relative terms, so blocking off the diffuser and fitting a moveable rear wing isn't too hard, fitting KERS however may be difficult though.

This to me means that Mclaren have decided to stick with a push rod setup, other wise they would be running a new car with pullrod because the differences are very big.

Just my thoughts

[forty-two]

This to me means that Mclaren have decided to stick with a push rod setup, other wise they would be running a new car with pullrod because the differences are very big.

You're possibly right, but I would have thought that the same would have been true with Red Bull running high-exiting exhausts for the first test, and then sneakily using stickers to appear to be high exhausts while actually running low exhaust exits at the end of testing.

I guess in that case, the advantage of the EBD was considered important enough to "double develop" in order to mask the idea until the end of testing? Perhaps McLaren would view the suspension question in much the same way?

[marcush.]

for whatever reason they have decided not to show up with the new girl for the first test and have a last outing with the one they know very well...this really looks like they want to gather comparative tests for the new Pirelli tyre and in fact this hints at them changing their concept of car dramatically.The new car is ready ,otherwise they would not be able to show her the very next day.If it was that close it would be motivation enough for the guys to do enough to get to that test with the new car.

The RB6 moving of exhaust was surely something they had decided on very late and possibly were not confident it would hold up so the shake down was done coventional.As we have seen with other outfits it was very important to get some mileage with the EBD parts...

[SiLo]

Possibly, but I can't see them running sticker push rod while secretly running pull rod!

Maybe we will get to see some of the stuff that all the hype has been about though.

[Just_a_fan]

This to me means that Mclaren have decided to stick with a push rod setup, other wise they would be running a new car with pullrod because the differences are very big.

One could argue that the reason for running an interim car for the first test is to give a benchmark on the new tyres before they start testing a new pull-rod rear end. In fact, it makes more sense that way. Changing two variables (tyres and suspension philosophy) in one hit is not a great idea, especially when the prime competitor (RB) only has one of those changes to make.

McLaren know how the current chassis and tyres work together. By using the same chassis (albeit with 2011 aero addenda) they get a good idea of how the new tyres vary from the previous ones. Then, when they use the new chassis they have an idea of what is tyre and what is chassis performance issues.

[forty-two]

The RB6 moving of exhaust was surely something they had decided on very late and possibly were not confident it would hold up so the shake down was done coventional.As we have seen with other outfits it was very important to get some mileage with the EBD parts...

While you might be correct, I actually think that RB had planned on the low exhaust from very early on in their design. This was merely being concealed from the other teams until as late as possible.

[FemiA]

They obviously have their reasons for using an interim car for the first test, and it obviously doesn't impact them that much not using the new car otherwise they would of pushed the launch date forward.

When you think about it, the cars won't change much from last year in relative terms, so blocking off the diffuser and fitting a moveable rear wing isn't too hard, fitting KERS however may be difficult though.

This to me means that Mclaren have decided to stick with a push rod setup, other wise they would be running a new car with pullrod because the differences are very big.

Just my thoughts

I am new here and pay homage to you all.

Is it not possible to run the modified MP4-25 with pull-rod suspension for the first test if they want to test that as well?

[mith]

They would have to change gearbox, as the mounting points are attached to it. So quite a lot of work to do so...

[PlatinumZealot]

Sorry to interject, if some of you read my last post; I was establishing if Mclaren has to block of the diffuser and the reply was no. That means that the sole reason for testing with '10 cars the first time out is for direct tyre comparison by the drivers/engineers and adjustment of whatever tools/software they use back at the factory. In onther words, with testing the new tyres with the old car they can define the boundaries of it's performance more directly. Hope I'm right.

On the pull rod suspension, it's a no brainer. There is an aerodynamic benefit AND a mechanical benefit when its "unlocked". Even the untuned torro rosso was fighting for Q3 with upgraded cars like the Saubers, Renaults, Mercedes and the Williams with two "rookie" drivers and basically an inexperienced team of engineers on a low budget. Imagine the possibilites with Mclaren.

[marcush.]

The RB6 moving of exhaust was surely something they had decided on very late and possibly were not confident it would hold up so the shake down was done coventional.As we have seen with other outfits it was very important to get some mileage with the EBD parts...

While you might be correct, I actually think that RB had planned on the low exhaust from very early on in their design. This was merely being concealed from the other teams until as late as possible.

hm my feeling is if it were as you thought why bother and build a complete set of floors, sidepods ,exhausts etc ..just to throw it away after the shake down?
Why not start with it and have true fake exhaust pipes in the usual position ..I guess they had enugh time to prepare something more than a sticker...
anyways back on topic

[myurr]

I still think you're overstating the advantages. Both Ferrari and McLaren would have looked at a pull rod setup for last years cars, both dismissed it as not being the optimal solution so the benefits cannot be that significant.

Red Bull's speed didn't come from having a pull rod setup, although with their design philosophy it would have had a minor benefit. Their speed was, IMHO, primarily due to the EBD, front wing, flexing body parts, and a design that was not as pitch sensitive as the McLaren.

[marcush.]

the effect of placing the dampers and ,springs and inerter between engine and gearbox is not something easily implemented in your box....And possibly neither Ferrari nor Mclaren understood where RedBull was heading with their RB6 design .
a lot of people said pullrod was not really an advantage for the DDD ...

so the pullrod may or may not be a more or less significant contribution to the RedBull advantage.Sure it is no disadvantage overall .And even Newey was on record that he had figured it out better for a non DDD rear...
At the rear we will see more pullrod not only with McLaren.

[myurr]

At the rear we will see more pullrod not only with McLaren.

For the record I don't doubt for a second that we'll see more cars with the pullrod suspension this year, quite probably including McLaren. I just don't think it's the be all and end all of modern F1 car design that many make out across the various F1 forums, and that any team not going that route is destined for failure.

[forty-two]

At the rear we will see more pullrod not only with McLaren.

For the record I don't doubt for a second that we'll see more cars with the pullrod suspension this year, quite probably including McLaren. I just don't think it's the be all and end all of modern F1 car design that many make out across the various F1 forums, and that any team not going that route is destined for failure.

At least one other team will be running the RedBull gearbox and Renault engine this year, so that suggests that at least they will probably be using pull-rod?

EDIT: Typo

[marcush.]

a few years ago a lot of teams had their bellcranks just bolted to the top of the hub and now there is not a single team using this simple solution .
At the rear the change has taken longer ,simply because a higher level of integration demands a lot of interdiscipline teamwork with the many people involved now.In the earlier days the guy drawing the gearbox simply had not the time to do such a mega job as back then as now the gearboxcasing is one of the items with the longest leadtime...so basically you have to be ready with almost everything before releasing the gearbox drawing...quite logical NOT to get too deep into the mud with that.