McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

[Giblet]

I don't see Mclaren needing time to sort out pull rod. People talk about it like it's magic and very complex. It's just a different tried and true suspension style that has been around for ages.

Mclaren will already have the knowledge base they need to make it work. They are more than capable of delivering a car at the first test, but have decided against it to get valuable data on the new tires in relation to the 2010 car.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I don't see Mclaren needing time to sort out pull rod. People talk about it like it's magic and very complex. It's just a different tried and true suspension style that has been around for ages.

Mclaren will already have the knowledge base they need to make it work. They are more than capable of delivering a car at the first test, but have decided against it to get valuable data on the new tires in relation to the 2010 car.

Its a different rear end concept altogether. Perhaps not complex, but in terms of the F1, to change is a big undertaking alright.

[Giblet]

Sure, but it's completely within their ability to create a car ready for the first test. It's possible you are correct of course, but I wonder what you think is so complex that one of the deepest racing teams in the world would need extra time to sort out.

I'm really curious what tricks they have in mind that they are alluding to. Until the car was launched there was little hint of an f-duct. I say this because I think if there are delays it would be a new tech, not one that is already fully understood

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Sorry to back track a bit...not been on in a while due to starting a new job (been VERY busy).

Wesley was whittering on about Engine Breaking being banned.

Just to clarify I assume he means CONTROLLING the Engine-Braking properties of the engine is banned. As engine-breaking is a phenomenon which is inheirent to the internal conbustion engine. I.E it is not possible to construct an Internal Combustion Engine which does not generate some form of Engine Breaking?

Because otherwise I'm completely confused lol.

Oh and seeing as its my first post since then, Happy New Year to you all

[Owen.C93]

Engine braking is not banned, only controlling with the ECU under braking by blipping the throttle to stop lockups.

They can still change throttle maps to alter the amount of engine braking applied.

Here's a quote from Sam Micheal in 2008 when it was first banned.

“There is still engine braking, so when you lift off the throttle it's still there, and you have different throttle maps that you can apply to tune that. The big difference is that there are no anti-lock systems. So under braking when you normally slam the brakes on you have got a rear anti-lock system that controls the rear-wheel slip. That's gone”.

[myurr]

Personally, I think McLaren unveil somthing more akin to the Red Bull RB6, with a Mclaren slant on things(very special detailing) and the time delay is to sort out a pull rod rear suspension.

My prediction anyway

Okay well my prediction is that they don't clone the RB6, as that would be a big mistake (targeting last years design and making it work whilst Newey is off designing the upgraded version), and that it doesn't have anything to do with needing time to sort out a pull rod rear suspension.

Gary Paffett is quoted on autosport at the moment as saying he will be doing one of the test days in the old car. That, to me, sounds like the team are telling the truth and are establishing a base line with the new tyres. By changing only one parameter that will make the data from the car much more valuable for the simulator than data clouded by multiple changes at once.

Where you may be a little bit right though is that this could indicate a change in rear suspension layout (possibly but not necessarily pull rod), as that, coupled with the aero, would be a third change to the car further muddying the picture they'd get on how the tyres were working.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Now I see what your both saying (myurr and Giblet) But Red Bulls design is generally regarded as the way to go.

Look at 2009, the RB5 with Pull-rod suspension creamed all non double diffuser cars, and once DDD was accomodated it was the class of the field.
In 2010 it was the RB6(an evolved RB5) that was doing the damage. Ross Brawn has already said that Mercedes looked at a pull rod rear but ditched it because getting it right was not an easy task.
Mclaren may have a unique interpretation of the pull rod, or some aero advancement because of it that they and want to refine until they are perfectly satisfied.
Red Bull did it rather effectively in 2010...Newey inisisting that the car be honed before its unveiling.

Now running he 25 for the first test is also fairly straightforward. It may be that with the switch to Pirelli, any data they have dialled into the 26 will need to be verified with a car they know very well. Once the data is accrued, the engineers can crunch the numbers and then be certain what they have is tangible.
That they have that they have Gary Paffet doing the testing also tells me that its tyre related rather than anything sinister...but I have been wrong before.

[marcush.]

the top teams have all looked into it ,and they have looked into it for 2010.
Newey was on record stating he would have perhaps not done it if he knew the DDD was allowed..

In terms of packaging it is a lot more demanding to put the whole spring ,damper ,inerter and leverarms between engine mounting face and gearcluster,a space populated by the spinning clutch and input shaft ,clutch slave cylinder and maybe other bits you look a proper place for .
so You can bin the idea to just do a little redesign and voila pullrod is ready and winning...
i guess you will face more than one big headache before all the bits a re fitting and able to do their assigned job as needed without compromising other key functionalities of your designs.
so after say 10 years of perfecting the longitudinal box with torsionsprings and rockerarms on top of it ...you would be in a position to throw away all the expertise and start afresh.
Gearboxes are a high risk area and considering this it is notably a very rare item to fail these days...so the rate of change is really slow ..people develop what they have and do small steps they are VERY sure of.

[Holm86]

Why do you guys predict the 2011 cars will be just as fast or faster than the 2010 cars?

The Pirelli tyre test after the season last year showed that the new pirelli's is a few sec's slower than the bridgestones (i know progress can have been made since then) but the DD is also banned for next year. Thats alot of downforce lost right there.

So to me slower tyres + lower downforce + heavy'er cars dosnt equal faster cars .... I believe the 2011 cars will be slightly slower than 2010 cars ...

[Owen.C93]

KERS and heavily reduced drag on the straights will gain alot of that time back, in qualifying at least.

[ringo]

Why do you guys predict the 2011 cars will be just as fast or faster than the 2010 cars?

The Pirelli tyre test after the season last year showed that the new pirelli's is a few sec's slower than the bridgestones (i know progress can have been made since then) but the DD is also banned for next year. Thats alot of downforce lost right there.

So to me slower tyres + lower downforce + heavy'er cars dosnt equal faster cars .... I believe the 2011 cars will be slightly slower than 2010 cars ...

They maybe, but i think it's best the teams not get comfortable with this fact. Mclaren need to aim as high as possible, so if they land short they still are at a high level.
I would guess they will be slower. Australia 2009 is a good idea of what we might see. I liked that race, it was a good representation of what the non DDD cars would be like.
The Mclaren was capable of podiums then. So with a better car and the KERS know how they should be in a good position.

I was thinking the other day about a return of flat plate heat exchangers. Gordon Murray used them on the Brabham bt46b. They may have some use for the KERS cooling, you never know.

[Ratatouille]

Hmm, IIRC the MP4-24 was a dog even compared to the non DDD cars in 2009. This was due to the fact that they couldn't get enough DF from their rear wing remember? That's when the floviz and aero gizmos appeared.

Let's hope they've learned their lessons and now they can get their windtunnel correctly calibrated.

[mith]

Don't mind me being off topic, but Australia 2009 was rather strange race. I remeber Kubica fighting with Vettel for the 2nd place. So it suggested F1.09 was rather good car. And we all know the truth

[ringo]

That's the interesting thing about that race. Whatever the reasons are, DDD, or simply teams still orienting themselves, that race was pretty entertaining.
The Mclaren was crap, but the KERS was so well done that it actually made the 24 competitive.
If they can compete with a crap car and KERS, they should do well with a better a platform coupled with the extensive experience they have with the KERS system.

The banning of the DDD would mean the 26 wont have the same sensitivity issues with the DDD, so they can go back to their pliant handling philosophy.

My only hope is that the car's complications don't make it too heavy.
If you check the Mclaren website and go to the feature that shows all the updates over the 2010 season, they went through a lot of weight reductions. This implies the 25 was a little too heavy from the onset.

[ell66]

That's the interesting thing about that race. Whatever the reasons are, DDD, or simply teams still orienting themselves, that race was pretty entertaining.
The Mclaren was crap, but the KERS was so well done that it actually made the 24 competitive.
If they can compete with a crap car and KERS, they should do well with a better a platform coupled with the extensive experience they have with the KERS system.

The banning of the DDD would mean the 26 wont have the same sensitivity issues with the DDD, so they can go back to their pliant handling philosophy.

My only hope is that the car's complications don't make it too heavy.
If you check the Mclaren website and go to the feature that shows all the updates over the 2010 season, they went through a lot of weight reductions. This implies the 25 was a little too heavy from the onset.

please get your facts right.the mp4-24 was in no way competetive in aus, they went out in q1. as for the race it was a mad one, both ferrari's retiring whilst ahead and many teams getting there straetgy wrong and suffering massive graining on the options.

and i doubt the mclaren was espeically heavy, you dont know if they allways do that or even if other teams do, and besides they had with out doubt the longest wheelbase last year which wopuldnt help matters for weight.