Adjustable Rear Wing (DRS)

[FW17]

On one hand yes it is artificial, on the other hand cars used to be able to follow other cars closely as they weren't so aero dependent. In a way the ARW will make cars more like they used to be.

I'm kind of on the fence with one, I'll have to wait and see how it effects the racing.

I would just hate for a title to hinge (pardon the pun) on the ARW.

In my opinion the only right solution would be to make the cars rely less on aerodynamics. For relevancy and close racing it would be better to reduce the amount of downforce to the levels of high performance road cars. This could be achieved by introduce an absolute limit on the amount of downforce to be generated. The design itself could be left fairly free.

Don't understand this.

One thread people are against F1 becoming slower, the other thread people say that it has to become less aero reliant. How can both be possible?

[raymondu999]

Be more mechanical reliant, I guess. AND maybe the aero focus has to shift from downforce to drag

[myurr]

For me I don't mind how they do it, as long as the cars are the fastest around and can race each other wheel to wheel. This could be by reducing downforce. They could keep the downforce but massively reduce tyre grip (wet races are still fun). They can play with the brakes to increase the braking zone. They can change the circuits to create conditions where the cars can race wheel to wheel. Etc.

However they do it I believe the current F1 cars are too stable and easy to drive on the limit (so we see too few mistakes), braking distances are too short giving too little room for the overtake to actually happen and not giving enough variation between the cars and drivers, and obviously the aero of the cars is preventing them following closely enough. The points system also rewards consistency over all else, so the drivers take a conservative approach and don't risk losing points.

[Pingguest]

On one hand yes it is artificial, on the other hand cars used to be able to follow other cars closely as they weren't so aero dependent. In a way the ARW will make cars more like they used to be.

I'm kind of on the fence with one, I'll have to wait and see how it effects the racing.

I would just hate for a title to hinge (pardon the pun) on the ARW.

In my opinion the only right solution would be to make the cars rely less on aerodynamics. For relevancy and close racing it would be better to reduce the amount of downforce to the levels of high performance road cars. This could be achieved by introduce an absolute limit on the amount of downforce to be generated. The design itself could be left fairly free.

Don't understand this.

One thread people are against F1 becoming slower, the other thread people say that it has to become less aero reliant. How can both be possible?

I'm not at all against Formula 1 becoming slower.

[FW17]

If the current lot of drivers were driving in 1968 there will still be the same amount of overtaking.

[ringo]

Technical

Since the wing flap is going to be allowed to be moving only after about halfway of the straight most of the cars will be about max speed -15kmph which will be in excess of 280kmph in most circuits. As the top flap is to be hinged on the top and lower end actuated, what will be the load on the wing flap? What will be the size of these hydraulic systems?

Will it be something this heavy?

Williams have hinted at a hydraulic system, i think this may feed of the gearbox hydraulics. it wont be heavier than motors in the side of the endplates. It may have either ram actuation or hydraulic motor actuation.
The loadings on the rear wing could be a couple hundred pounds, loading on the rear element maybe half of that. The system should be able to manage that, especially if it a greater moment arm compared to the centre of pressure on the wing to the pivot point.

The speed at which it activates is the mystery to me. How much power will they devote to it?

You need the wing to flip up as fast as possible to make use of every inch of the ARW zone. Having a weak system may crank the wings too slowly, though such a sytem would take less engine power for the period of time.

[PlatinumZealot]

Judging by the rams on the buggatti. the systems would be very light if it was pneumatic. I have pneumatic ram with me right at my desk right now. It's small about 5 lbs in weight, and with 125psi of air it can push over 130lbs of force.

There is going to be a balance between size of cylinder/motor and the pressure required to move it. A bigger motor/cylinder and you can use thinner lighter parts, (more force less pressure) and the other hand, a smaller cylinder/motor and you will need higher pressure to get the same force but the structure has to be thicker to take the pressure.. whether pneumatic or hydraulic.

I think haudraulic would be more reliable. Becuase pnuematic needs to have return lines and air bleeds. It would make a nice sound though.

[strad]

Pnuematic would require the addition weight of an air pump

[Just_a_fan]

Do the regs define where the upper element is hinged? If they allowed it to be close to the centre of pressure you could reduce the amount of effort required to activate it. The MP4-12C uses a brake flap that is partly activated using the movement of the centre of pressure during operation.

The regs do limit the upper element movement to only 50mm IIRC so careful lever design will mean that the actuator can be quite small.

The important issue is the speed at which the system reverts to high downforce mode on activation of the brakes. Potential instability issues otherwise.

Actually, that makes me wonder if the unstable nature of the car using the ARW might actually mean that the overtaking car is slightly vulnerable to being beaten in the braking zone. A car might just get the run on another one by using the ARW but then be going quicker whilst also slightly unstable as they start to brake. The overtaken car might then get the position back in to the corner.

This might be interesting after all.

[747heavy]

RCE magazine recently (9/2010) had a article about the possible actuation methods.
Basicly it boiled down to a hydraulic system or a electrical system, like some teams used for the FW.

It would think, that hydraulic would be the prefered choice, as this time we only need to go from one condition to the other, whereas the FW system, had different positions inbetween.

Just some numbers from the article mentioned.
hydraulic pressure in a F1 hydraulic system: ~230 bar
oil volume of hydraulic system: ~300 cc (0.3 ltr)
oil temperature of hydarulic fluid: 100-135°C

As the cars have a hydraulic system anyway for the gearbox/diff/clutch/throttle control systems, it would make sense (IMHO) to just add another actuator and some MOOG valves (~90g each) to the existing system and operate the RW flap hydraulical.

[Just_a_fan]

Piggybacking a variable aero actuator on to the gearbox hydraulic system is what is currently done in road cars. Another example of F1 tech following road cars rather than vice versa...

[forty-two]

Agreed, but I'm fairly sure I heard that the Bugatti Veyron had a seperate rad to cool the hydraulic fluid which operates it's rear wing. Surely that would imply a seperate circuit for this fluid?

Granted though, the Veyron is hardly a "normal" road car!

[Just_a_fan]

The Veyron needed 10 radiators to add just 15mph to the F1's top speed. Hardly a well engineered project...

[csponton]

MRW - Mobile Rear Wing http://spontoncristiano.wordpress.com/2 ... rear-wing/

As we know, the rookies are now in short supply in Formula 1 because when you are in the wake of a 'other car does tend to lose significant downforce at the front of the car. The car at this point becomes not only unstable but also lose much in performance.
[imghttp://spontoncristiano.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/mrw-inline11.jpg?w=470&h=265][/img]
A F1 car that moves through the air creates turbulence that are very similar to those generated by a jet moving water. These disturbances are called scie.Se think of two personal watercraft in the wake, one that follows behind greatly in lost benefits as it becomes very difficult to govern. The same concept applies to the F1 single-seaters, with the exception that the water is replaced by 'air.

The group that studies of FOTA to make the most spectacular races may have worked hard in recent years to try to find innovative solutions to make easier the overtaking in F1.

The Group had the idea to give back in some way a better performance in the slipstream of the car to equalize the deficit lost because of aerodynamic turbulence. The way chosen was to temporarily increase the engine power (thanks to KERS) and decrease the load downforce rear wing to increase the top speed.

The rear wing of an F1 car generates not only a large amount of downforce, but also an incredible amount of resistance and turbulence. Then reduce drag rear wing automatically mean increasing the speed of the vehicle. This is exactly the concept mobile wing (MRW - Mobile Rear Wing) which was introduced by the FIA Technical Regulations 2011. Increase the distance between the main element of 'rear wing and the top of the flap will result in the reduction of the resistance and deportation (see drawing). When the driver presses a button, located on the steering wheel of his car, a mechanism raises the front of the rear wing flap, called the leading edge, around a fulcrum (pivot) on the rear wing, called the edge out. This will cause the air flow is separated, thereby reducing aerodynamic drag to progress with an increase in tone with maximum speed 7-13 km / h.

The 2011 technical regulations governing the use of MRW requires that the minimum distance between the main floor and the rear wing flap is 10 mm. The motion, the tax is set by regulation, will be 50 mm, without the possibility of interim adjustments.
The MRW is activated when the driver presses a special button on his steering wheel, and winger will remain in his position of low resistance until the rider slows down. The wing will return to its original position when the pilot will have completed the overtaking maneuver.
The timing system will be vital when it must constantly calculate the gap between two cars on the track. When there will be less than a second between two cars, the delegates to the official FIA will pilot the car following MRW to activate the device and use the configuration and less aerodynamic drag (higher top speed) in order to maneuver groped overtaking. The tests and the first F1 World Championship races will be used as a test because if the pass with this system will become too easy, but the FIA change some settings to try to make it more complicated. The beauty of this system is that MRW is fully and easily adjustable. During qualifying, there will be no restriction on the use of MRW, but the pilot can use it as and when it wants. The teams will also be very careful to select the right gear ratios because the engine could be a "limited" when the driver uses the configuration at low load. To prevent this, teams, surely they will use a 7 on a plan that will exploit the low-load configuration. At the start of the race, the system will be deactivated MRW (default position) for the first two rounds. The reason for this is not to penalize too much the pilot who made the pole position, because otherwise it would be the only driver who can not use the system MRW on the first lap of the race. The MRW also be disabled for the first lap or two after a safety car period, for the same reason that the lead driver would be unfairly disadvantaged. The idea of this system seems very good. Time will tell whether the track finally overtaking in modern F1 that you can still do ...

[csponton]

MRW - Mobile Rear Wing http://spontoncristiano.wordpress.com/2 ... rear-wing/

As we know, the rookies are now in short supply in Formula 1 because when you are in the wake of a 'other car does tend to lose significant downforce at the front of the car. The car at this point becomes not only unstable but also lose much in performance.

A F1 car that moves through the air creates turbulence that are very similar to those generated by a jet moving water. These disturbances are called scie.Se think of two personal watercraft in the wake, one that follows behind greatly in lost benefits as it becomes very difficult to govern. The same concept applies to the F1 single-seaters, with the exception that the water is replaced by 'air.

The group that studies of FOTA to make the most spectacular races may have worked hard in recent years to try to find innovative solutions to make easier the overtaking in F1.

The Group had the idea to give back in some way a better performance in the slipstream of the car to equalize the deficit lost because of aerodynamic turbulence. The way chosen was to temporarily increase the engine power (thanks to KERS) and decrease the load downforce rear wing to increase the top speed.

The rear wing of an F1 car generates not only a large amount of downforce, but also an incredible amount of resistance and turbulence. Then reduce drag rear wing automatically mean increasing the speed of the vehicle. This is exactly the concept mobile wing (MRW - Mobile Rear Wing) which was introduced by the FIA Technical Regulations 2011. Increase the distance between the main element of 'rear wing and the top of the flap will result in the reduction of the resistance and deportation (see drawing). When the driver presses a button, located on the steering wheel of his car, a mechanism raises the front of the rear wing flap, called the leading edge, around a fulcrum (pivot) on the rear wing, called the edge out. This will cause the air flow is separated, thereby reducing aerodynamic drag to progress with an increase in tone with maximum speed 7-13 km / h.

The 2011 technical regulations governing the use of MRW requires that the minimum distance between the main floor and the rear wing flap is 10 mm. The motion, the tax is set by regulation, will be 50 mm, without the possibility of interim adjustments.
The MRW is activated when the driver presses a special button on his steering wheel, and winger will remain in his position of low resistance until the rider slows down. The wing will return to its original position when the pilot will have completed the overtaking maneuver.
The timing system will be vital when it must constantly calculate the gap between two cars on the track. When there will be less than a second between two cars, the delegates to the official FIA will pilot the car following MRW to activate the device and use the configuration and less aerodynamic drag (higher top speed) in order to maneuver groped overtaking. The tests and the first F1 World Championship races will be used as a test because if the pass with this system will become too easy, but the FIA change some settings to try to make it more complicated. The beauty of this system is that MRW is fully and easily adjustable. During qualifying, there will be no restriction on the use of MRW, but the pilot can use it as and when it wants. The teams will also be very careful to select the right gear ratios because the engine could be a "limited" when the driver uses the configuration at low load. To prevent this, teams, surely they will use a 7 on a plan that will exploit the low-load configuration. At the start of the race, the system will be deactivated MRW (default position) for the first two rounds. The reason for this is not to penalize too much the pilot who made the pole position, because otherwise it would be the only driver who can not use the system MRW on the first lap of the race. The MRW also be disabled for the first lap or two after a safety car period, for the same reason that the lead driver would be unfairly disadvantaged. The idea of this system seems very good. Time will tell whether the track finally overtaking in modern F1 that you can still do ...