Kubica's Recovery

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ParanoiD
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Re: Kubica's in hospital

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The FOZ wrote:I think that "reconstruction" video is garbage. A few sources said there was a gap between two armco barriers. Nearly impossible to break a barrier at those speeds and that angle IMO.
agree, there is to be some gap between the barrier. then it will make quite a sense.

anyway, i am still hoping Kimi to replace Kubica, he is undoubtly quick when you give him the right car. I know Heidfield is underrated, but will Renault take a risk?

They are already going extreme with their car, they are serious about the championship.
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myurr
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Re: Kubica's in hospital

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The FOZ wrote:I think that "reconstruction" video is garbage. A few sources said there was a gap between two armco barriers. Nearly impossible to break a barrier at those speeds and that angle IMO.
Which sources? I've only seen that mentioned on here as speculation. It certainly wouldn't make sense in the middle of a bend with a cliff top drop onto trees for there to be a gap by design...

If you look back a couple of pages the video is pretty much a reconstruction of what I described, so you'll be pleased to know that I find it at least plausible.

Richard
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Re: Kubica's in hospital

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myurr - there are other parts of the route that have gaps in the barrier, I posted a screen shot of one of them a few pages back, so it is not an unusual arrangement for that road.

The co-driver said "After skidding, the car leaned against the guard rail and pushed it outwards. Then it crashed against the following guard rail." That infers to me that there was a gap between two barriers.

The above points are inference ,but the photos also tell the same story. Lets look at the picture of the rear of the car, it clearly shows an end piece on the barrier. These barriers have a double corrugation, and the end pieces taper the corrugation to a flat surface with rounded corners. That's what you can see in the picture. If the barrier had broken, you'd see the twin corrugation continuing to the end, you'd see 4 bolt holes for the failed connection, and it would have square corners.

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Lurk
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Re: Kubica's in hospital

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I totally agree with you. Their was 2 barriers and Kubica was hurt by the second one.
Co-driver said that, you clearly explain the end piece of barrier (I saw it too and gave the same explanation in another forum) and there is no way a barrier could break with that speed in that angle.
Even it if breaks, barrier would be deformed first and couldn't get in the car.

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forty-two
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Re: Kubica's in hospital

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Tim.Wright wrote:I hope something good comes of this in terms of the penetration safety of these cars.

While Im generally opposed to knee jerk reactions on the grounds of safety, I have wondered for years how noone (or very few) have been seriously injured by objects piercing through the spaceframe. And something going THROUGH the front crash structure, engine bay, firewall and THEN into the cockpit is not really acceptable.

This is not such an issue on tarmac vehicles but on a rally track just about every obstacle is long slim and pointed (trees, poles, fences, sticks) some thought need to be put into making the cars a bit more resistent to them.

I'm thinking something of a kevlar panel across the firewall or even kevlar cloth like in a bullet proof vest could contain this type of impact, or at least reduce it greatly. It would be called the Kubica wall.

Tim
My thoughts exactly.

I was however pondering this, and I reckon something more like a steel band would be required around the front of the car (or at least in front of the engine) anchored in many places to spread the load of such an impact in much the same way as these "ribbon" style crash barriers are designed to work.

I guess that the trouble is, whatever you put there to protect against point impact is also likely to reduce the "crumple" ability of the front end of the car, reducing it's capability to absorb other types of impact.
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Richard
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Re: Kubica's in hospital

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The pointed object must be a rare/freak event. I'm not sure how you could protect the cockpit against that. A Kevlar sandwich in the bulkhead might absorb some of the energy, but I'm sure that barrier would would have still crumpled the cockpit because energy absorption requires defection.

The mechanism would be the object impacting the bulkhead, the Kevlar going into tension, the tension resisted by the roll cage, the roll cage crumpling to absorb the energy. Possibly a broken leg for the occupants?

An alternative would be to locate the Kevlar bulkhead at the front, but that would cause problems for the radiators, it would also fail to protect against an object from under the engine bay into the cockpit. I am presuming that a Kevlar solution would also be applied to the side & floor of the cockpit.

There must be precedent for these cars hitting lamp posts or trees, there are a lot of them along most rally routes! I guess the front crumple zone deals with head on impact, but what about hitting a tree side on? Are there instances of teh bulkhead being breached by engines or running gear?

We need a bit more evidence.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Kubica's in hospital

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I dreamt of a radio announcement announcing Kubica's death. After that there was a funeral with all the drivers attending. Strange isn't it?
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Kubica's in hospital

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The list of Kubica's injuries of the arm and leg from today's Przeglad Sportowy (Polish newspaper) and the helpful illustrations from Wikipedia:

Image

- the forearm partly cut off in two places
- the shoulder broken
- the neck of the humerus broken
- the elbow joint broken
- the ulna and the radius double-broken

Image

- a cut in the thigh
- a cut in in the patella and in the ligament of the patella
- the tibia and the fibula broken
I found this on Autosport forum and thought it worth sharing.
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Tufty
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Re: Kubica's in hospital

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WhiteBlue wrote:
The list of Kubica's injuries of the arm and leg from today's Przeglad Sportowy (Polish newspaper) and the helpful illustrations from Wikipedia:

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ty.jpg[img]

- the forearm partly cut off in two places
- the shoulder broken
- the neck of the humerus broken
- the elbow joint broken
- the ulna and the radius double-broken

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ty.jpg[img]

- a cut in the thigh
- a cut in in the patella and in the ligament of the patella
- the tibia and the fibula broken
I found this on Autosport forum and thought it worth sharing.
Thanks for posting :)
Last edited by mx_tifoso on 09 Feb 2011, 23:05, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: disabled img tags
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Re: Kubica's in hospital

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The aged among us will remember that Ronnie Peterson died of far less serious injuries (a broken leg). Racing will always be dangerous, but we have made great strides.
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mx_tifoso
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Re: Kubica's in hospital

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Please limit the discussion to Kubica's accident and condition. That means directing all of the replacement driver chat to the 'Silly Season 2011 thread'.

And all posts about the replacement driver have just been moved over to the Silly season thread.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Kubica's in hospital

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That's a horror story list of injuries... :shock: :(
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archiebald
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Re: Kubica's in hospital

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richard_leeds wrote:The pointed object must be a rare/freak event. I'm not sure how you could protect the cockpit against that. A Kevlar sandwich in the bulkhead might absorb some of the energy, but I'm sure that barrier would would have still crumpled the cockpit because energy absorption requires defection.

The mechanism would be the object impacting the bulkhead, the Kevlar going into tension, the tension resisted by the roll cage, the roll cage crumpling to absorb the energy. Possibly a broken leg for the occupants?

An alternative would be to locate the Kevlar bulkhead at the front, but that would cause problems for the radiators, it would also fail to protect against an object from under the engine bay into the cockpit. I am presuming that a Kevlar solution would also be applied to the side & floor of the cockpit.

There must be precedent for these cars hitting lamp posts or trees, there are a lot of them along most rally routes! I guess the front crumple zone deals with head on impact, but what about hitting a tree side on? Are there instances of teh bulkhead being breached by engines or running gear?

We need a bit more evidence.
I have been lurking for a long time here, first post....

I agree that something must be learned from this horrific freak of an accident but it should be done with careful thought.

It is clear that the barrier that caused all the damage was the beginning of a new section. Whatever your feelings are on the rights and wrongs of those barriers, it is clear that there should not be a starting point on the outside of a corner - even for road use only. For a racing event, that should be avoided at all costs.

If it had not been for the barrier construction then this would have been a minor graze of an accident. Kubica would have probably scraped some paint and continued the stage without much thought to it.

However, coming onto the penetration of the driver cell, rally cars are VERY good at protecting the occupants in a tumbling or blunt object impact. But, I really think that there is nothing that can be done to prevent the Kubica incident happening again. When facing an impact onto a pointed object, there is enormous energy concentrated onto one point. The only way to prevent the penetration would involve multiple layers that can absorb this force. First, it would be enormously difficult and expensive to do, secondly it would probably cause the vehicle deceleration to be so severe that the occupants could die from whiplash (do they use the HANS restraint in rally?)

In summary, I think that more careful vetting of the rally course should be the way to proceed, rather than on car design.

And finally, I sincerely hope that Robert can feel all the support that is coming his way and he can use that energy to make a speedy recovery.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Kubica's in hospital

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richard_leeds wrote:The pointed object must be a rare/freak event. I'm not sure how you could protect the cockpit against that. A Kevlar sandwich in the bulkhead might absorb some of the energy, but I'm sure that barrier would would have still crumpled the cockpit because energy absorption requires defection.

The mechanism would be the object impacting the bulkhead, the Kevlar going into tension, the tension resisted by the roll cage, the roll cage crumpling to absorb the energy. Possibly a broken leg for the occupants
I disagree slightly with your mechanism. I think a kevlar wall strong enough will buckle the barrier (or lightpost) before it builds up enough force to pierce the wall. The advantage you have over these long slender objects is that a one ton racecar will always be able to buckle it by hitting it end on. If this barrier had hit a pipe on the roll structure exactly that would have happened and it would have been a complete non event. But because it seems to have missed all the strong parts and instead gone through a path of least resistance.

Putting it in front of the crash structure is also the wrong thing to do since the wall has to be permanent, i.e. not designed to crumple away.

Tim
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Dragonfly
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Re: Kubica's in hospital

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archiebald wrote: It is clear that the barrier that caused all the damage was the beginning of a new section.
It was IMO the end of a section and the logic behind it can be seen as the barrier is primarily thought to protect vehicles which have it on their right side, i.e. driving on the right in the opposite direction of Kubica's car.
But we can also easily see that such logic is faulty and the solution - incomplete, as even a normal road vehicle can go out of control and hit the barrier at the opposite side of the road.
Thus I agree with you that more careful vetting of the rally stage road parts is the best, easieast and immediate solution.
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