"How can F1 increase overtaking" - A Level Physics Report

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: "How can F1 increase overtaking" - A Level Physics Repor

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Wrigs

You reminded me of somthing I failed to add in my piece. By getting super hard non-grippy tyres, you can have near total freedom in the regs.
As the tyre is probably the single most important thing on the car it would lead to some interesting engineering solutions.
More could have been done.
David Purley

andrew
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Re: "How can F1 increase overtaking" - A Level Physics Repor

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Less aero dependant grip,
More reliance on the engine/transmission for grip,
Reduce the bhp of the engines,
Reduce bracking efficiency,
Less grip through tyres (cross ply??),
Remove all the annoying electronic gizmos (have you seen the Ferrari steering wheel!?)
Get rid of gimmicks like KERS and adjustable wings,
Get rid of mandatory tyre stops,
Keep the refuling ban,
Force the drivers to drive stick (even H shape with clutch pedal)

This would make for interesting racing and will show the true greats, not the drivers with the best equipment who get lucky. Basically, make the driver count for more than they currently do now.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: "How can F1 increase overtaking" - A Level Physics Repor

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Wrigs, I pointed out that convergence exists in other series, without interfering with cars passing each other.

On the other hand, as the F1 Manufacturers have pointed out for five years in a row, in F1 you have the particular problem of turbulence that doesn't allow one car to closely follow another.

So, the solution is all the opposite of what you propose, wrigs. Every time a team finds a way around the rules, nip them in the bud. For example, this year we have, for the bud nipping the following:

- F-duct ban
- Shortened shark fins
- Restrictions on crash structure used to enhance diffusers
- No sprung plank fixings
- Stricter floor load tests
- Restricted aero rims
- No more blade style roll hoops
- Fixed weight distribution
- Stricter rules on rearview mirror placement

Source: http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/

If you still talk about less convergence of design, suit yourself, but is all the contrary, man. They are limiting ANY innovation that gives you more down force while they keep speed by giving less drag to the cars across the board, from adjustable rear wings to improved cooling without so much drag.

FIA is not expecting radical cars, with surprising new designs, they are expecting very similar cars, killing somehow the insistence of designers in the simple solution of winning races by extraordinary down force brought in by a gadget nobody has thought about before.

If you cannot see that, well, what's wrong with this forum, if I may ask? It's not my opinion, is what's happening in front of your very eyes.

It's not what I want, it's not what I discovered in some obscure paper: it's what's happening right now, it's the solution gave by the industry and it's what you should write about if you're writing a physics paper on the subject, instead of writing something like: "Well, I was too busy to read about the subject in the proper sources, but, hey, look the magnificent idea some guy gave me at F1Technical!".

Now, JET, dear, to substitute all this for a paper that proposes harder tyres is... well. Naive? Simplistic? Uninformed? Sure I think so. Same goes for andrew or mep (sorry, guys, it's not my intention to give you "the rages").

Where are your sources? Who, exactly (I mean, besides you or me) has given those solutions and where are they going to be implemented? Where are the numbers and the boring research and the long engineering articles that give those ideas some support, articles that you cannot summarize in five lines?

This forum has a level of quality by tradition and I insist that we are in this thread to help to write a paper, not to find a magic bullet that those hard headed morons at FIA avoid using because they are... morons?

I won't say that again, feel free to find the solution that nobody except you can see. I have things to do, that's all I should write here. Lunch is ready, see ya.
Ciro

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ringo
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Re: "How can F1 increase overtaking" - A Level Physics Repor

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On that note, mandating 6 or 8 wheels instead of 4 should be an across the the board change that could bring about increased overtaking.

More reliance on mechanical grip, the less affected by aerodynamics.
For Sure!!

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: "How can F1 increase overtaking" - A Level Physics Repor

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No offence taken Ciro. I learn a great deal from this site, and its from people like you.

But this is what swayed my opinion from the aero to the tyre argument.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/03/g ... rargument/

A simple theory to change F1, Or change F1 to suite a theory? That is the question :wink:
More could have been done.
David Purley

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: "How can F1 increase overtaking" - A Level Physics Repor

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ringo wrote:On that note, mandating 6 or 8 wheels instead of 4 should be an across the the board change that could bring about increased overtaking.

More reliance on mechanical grip, the less affected by aerodynamics.
And how will that be relevant when F1 is trying to align itself more with cars you have on the road? ie KERS, Turbo engines for 2013 and proposed new tyres from then on too.
More could have been done.
David Purley

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ringo
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Re: "How can F1 increase overtaking" - A Level Physics Repor

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There are many 8 wheeled and 18 wheel vehicles out there. :lol:
F1 can align itself with the heavy duty industry.

I think we can Ignore road relevance for the sake of this discussion. Can't really count out an solution that may well solve the problem as silly as it looks and sounds.

Image :shock:
Hmm, on second thought... maybe smaller diameter wheels with smaller brake rotors but keeping the same tyre width.

Image
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andrew
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Re: "How can F1 increase overtaking" - A Level Physics Repor

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ringo wrote:Image
Can I point out a design flaw? The wheel behind the front are bigger than the front and the wheels in front of the rears are smaller than the rears. It'll never work I tells ye! :lol:

Just_a_fan
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Re: "How can F1 increase overtaking" - A Level Physics Repor

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andrew wrote:Less aero dependant grip,
More reliance on the engine/transmission for grip,
Reduce the bhp of the engines,
Reduce bracking efficiency,
Less grip through tyres (cross ply??),
Remove all the annoying electronic gizmos (have you seen the Ferrari steering wheel!?)
Get rid of gimmicks like KERS and adjustable wings,
Get rid of mandatory tyre stops,
Keep the refuling ban,
Force the drivers to drive stick (even H shape with clutch pedal)

This would make for interesting racing and will show the true greats, not the drivers with the best equipment who get lucky. Basically, make the driver count for more than they currently do now.
As has been pointed out ad nauseam this already exists in other formulae. Why do some people want to turn F1 in to Formula Ford?
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

andrew
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Re: "How can F1 increase overtaking" - A Level Physics Repor

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No ones wanting to turn F1 into Formula Ford but who wants to see procesion after procession? If F1 becomes FFord then good, aslong as there is racing.

wrigs
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Re: "How can F1 increase overtaking" - A Level Physics Repor

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Ciro Pabón wrote:Wrigs, I pointed out that convergence exists in other series, without interfering with cars passing each other.
How do you know that? What makes you so sure that the amount of overtaking you see in other series is the maximum possible amount over overtaking? You don't know that for certain because no such thing exists.
Ciro Pabón wrote:On the other hand, as the F1 Manufacturers have pointed out for five years in a row, in F1 you have the particular problem of turbulence that doesn't allow one car to closely follow another.
Ciro Pabón wrote:So, the solution is all the opposite of what you propose, wrigs. Every time a team finds a way around the rules, nip them in the bud. For example, this year we have, for the bud nipping the following:

- F-duct ban
- Shortened shark fins
- Restrictions on crash structure used to enhance diffusers
- No sprung plank fixings
- Stricter floor load tests
- Restricted aero rims
- No more blade style roll hoops
- Fixed weight distribution
- Stricter rules on rearview mirror placement

Source: http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/

If you still talk about less convergence of design, suit yourself, but is all the contrary, man. They are limiting ANY innovation that gives you more down force while they keep speed by giving less drag to the cars across the board, from adjustable rear wings to improved cooling without so much drag.
This does not make any sense at all. If you limit the amount of possibilities that the constructors have with regards to design, you are increasing the technical convergence of the designs. If I can resort to hyperbole for a minute, we can go to the extreme end of convergence where the rules are so many that the series basically becomes a spec series, since no other legal design possibilites exist. By reducing the number of possibilites, you will increase the similarity of the legal possibilites. This a logical conclusion that can be demonstrated using simple mathematical logic. It is indisputable.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: "How can F1 increase overtaking" - A Level Physics Repor

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Ciro Pabón wrote: Image
The key is in the image. F1 cars currently rely on the front wing to a huge degree. Following a car prevents the front wing from working properly.

Question: how do we make the front wing work better when following?
Answer: ?

Well, one could simplify the front wing so that it is less "critical",

or

one could design the aero of cars so that they produce "nice air" for the following cars,

or

one could design the cars so that they don't need a front wing but still generate the required downforce.

Well, what do you know? We've had high downforce, no front wing, F1 cars in the past and they could run together and overtake. =D>

I thought you people were supposed to be engineers - lots of people just sit on one idea and harrass others for holding different views. That's not engineering, it's religion [-o< .
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: "How can F1 increase overtaking" - A Level Physics Repor

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:No offence taken Ciro. I learn a great deal from this site, and its from people like you.

But this is what swayed my opinion from the aero to the tyre argument.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/03/g ... rargument/

A simple theory to change F1, Or change F1 to suite a theory? That is the question :wink:
Well, JET, very good article! And many thanks. Besides, you're very kind. You got me on your side, I agree with the idea now that I understand the reasoning behind it. However, I still think we have to "pack the pack" as I explain later.

I still think this is a balancing act for FIA, they have to do things slowly and without interfering too much with racing, a very hard thing to do. They also have to burn the candle at both ends, aero and grip.

Wrigs, you're right, it's indisputable. FIA is diminishing the divergence, I agree. They are doing it with an objective in mind: more efficient, road relevant cars. Car engineering will always carry the shame of global warming and accidental deaths so, if you're investing several billions per year, you might as well use the money toward something significant. However, besides me saying "let's sing the Kumbaya" ;), think about this:

In Formula One there is a MASSIVE performance difference. We're talking about improving overtaking chances when there are teams that are not quick enough to REACH the front runners. That's what you could call "the excessive divergence problem".

So, F1 needs to close that gap, preferably in a way that does not betray the notion of innovation that F1 supposedly has as banner. That is also an economic problem that has been tackled mildly.

Just a Fan, I think we don't harass each other, we criticize the ideas we put forward, or so I try very hard. That differentiation could seem lukewarm, but I also think it is very important.

About the idea you have on less front wing force, yes, that's what they are trying to do with adjustable rear wings, I believe you're right on the mark.
Ciro

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: "How can F1 increase overtaking" - A Level Physics Repor

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andrew wrote:No ones wanting to turn F1 into Formula Ford but who wants to see procesion after procession? If F1 becomes FFord then good, aslong as there is racing.
Have you watched FFord? Some of the most boring races ever - lots of overtaking but no excitement.

Overtaking should not be easy and it should not be routine (in the sense that a driver can automatically overtake another). Overtakes should be earned and worked for.

Racing is exciting when the outcome of a move is not a given, it is exciting when overtakes are not routine but rather when they are set up and executed skillfully.

Does anyone really think that 20 overtakes / lap would be any less boring than 20 overtakes / race. "Oh look, X has overtaken Y. Oh look, Y has retaken the place" Repeat for 10 or 20 laps. Yawn. Go make a cup of tea.

Exciting is when X is in a poor car and holds up Y in a good car for a few corners or a lap or two. Remember Hamilton and Webber in 2009? Hamilton's car was a dog but had KERS. Webber's car was brilliant but no KERS. Webber was always going to get by and run off into the distance but for a few corners it was a case "maybe / maybe not". It was proper racing.

I do wonder if some of those who want easy overtaking are just annoyed because their favoured driver has struggled to pass mid-field cars / back markers and thus have lost out on races / titles...
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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ringo
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Re: "How can F1 increase overtaking" - A Level Physics Repor

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Ciro Pabón wrote: Image
The key is in the image. F1 cars currently rely on the front wing to a huge degree. Following a car prevents the front wing from working properly.

Question: how do we make the front wing work better when following?
Answer: ?

Well, one could simplify the front wing so that it is less "critical",

or

one could design the aero of cars so that they produce "nice air" for the following cars,

or

one could design the cars so that they don't need a front wing but still generate the required downforce.

Well, what do you know? We've had high downforce, no front wing, F1 cars in the past and they could run together and overtake. =D>

I thought you people were supposed to be engineers - lots of people just sit on one idea and harrass others for holding different views. That's not engineering, it's religion [-o< .
It affects more than just the front wing, the whole car is affected. The following car behaves like it's going much slower through the air; though it's not. So the down force over the whole car will behave like it's going at that slower speed.

The real issue with overtaking is really braking ability and catching up to the car to initiate the overtake. Dirty air helps a follower gain on the car ahead, however it takes away from the grip to brake.
We need cars that respond well to slip streaming in dirty air that also still have relatively optimum braking ability to complete the overtake.
The ARW is a good move, but the braking grip needs to be addressed.
As williams engineers have said, there are instances where the ARW needs to turned off earlier than expected.

Increasing the raw grip through # or area of contact patches could be a step in the right direction or even reintroduction of suction cars.
For Sure!!