Red Bull RB7 Renault

[Blackout]

Sorry Blackout,
no offence or disrespect intented.
Credit where credit is due - =D> =D>
you are right on the money - IMHO

lol
where is my medal ?

[747heavy]

Here my friend

[Mandrake]

Just a quick thought: Most teams have began to copy single bits from the RedBull, tight rear packaging, high nose, Pull-rod etc. but no team went as far and tried to replicate the RB6.

Leaving out cooling issues etc. do you think that another team could be successful in creating a carbon copy of the RB6? Would it be enough the design the car according to pictures they have or would the lack of knowledge about the RB6's philosophy hamper the success?

If this is not appropriate in this thread feel free to move it elsewhere.

[Lindz]

Ignoring that the RB6 was kinda designed with the DDD in mind, it's principles would still prove competitive in 2011. You could basically copy it, but then you know all the work you did just to replicate it (trust me, they all have a lot more info than we do looking at pics over the internet) would pale in comparison to the team who created it putting their resources into it's successor.

That's why you see bits copied and then other areas with different ideas (that hopefully can leapfrog the successor, ie RB7).

I do think that one of the lower teams should have just straight up copied the RB6, but in typing that I realize why not. The RB6 has very expensive ideas and to actually 'copy' a car takes very dedicated manpower and software. I've seen the computer programs at Honda that F1 teams have... building CFD CAD models from pictures taken of competitors' cars and stuff... it's impressively insane.

[horse]

do you think that another team could be successful in creating a carbon copy of the RB6?

Well, I guess Team Lotus had the most opportunity to do a "carbon copy" of the RB6 given the power train they are running, yet they haven't got an RB6.

I think, as Lindz said, the resources required to design and validate the complicated ideas of the Red Bull car may well exceed the resources of the the small teams. I'm sure lotuses Aerodynamicist was saying things like were very proud of "this piece" or "that piece". The Red Bull strikes me as a "whole car" in terms of its optimisation and I'm sure that costs a great amount of resources to do.

The other issue is the one you raised - do you pitch yourself at even the best of last years cars? You're almost guaranteed to be slower than the new batch of front running cars, even before a significant rule change.

[Lindz]

^Exactly.

Honda's F1 team had programs that built CAD models from pictures they took (or found) of competitors cars. I've seen a presentation of all this stuff. They've had their car in CFD with a Ferrari built virtually running tests on how the wings interacted with each other. And how would that differ if you were following a McLaren, etc.

It's massive and almost unreal how much money, technology, and effort they had into this and still their cars were... well... less than stellar, let's say.

I can't imagine what a relative start-up would be dealing with.

'We should do this in this way.'
'That would be great but we don't have budget for that.'
'Crap. How about like this?'
'Nope.'
'And like this?'
'Look, just make it square, we don't have time for this sh*t!'

[Just_a_fan]

The Red Bull strikes me as a "whole car" in terms of its optimisation and I'm sure that costs a great amount of resources to do.

Let's not forget that the RB7 is effectively in its third year of development. The tight rear concept started with the RB5 (and arguably with the RB4 although that was still back in the days of the little flip ups and winglets).

Red Bull have found a successful formula which others can't copy. This isn't unique - we've seen the same in the recent past with Ferrari, McLaren and Williams at various times having cars that were successful for a number of years in a row.

Red Bull will likely be very successul this year and perhaps next year too but then we will have a step change in the regs and all bets are off. We'll likley see someone new take up the mantle of "car to beat" then. It's the way this sport works.

[Boost]

Just a quick thought: Most teams have began to copy single bits from the RedBull, tight rear packaging, high nose, Pull-rod etc. but no team went as far and tried to replicate the RB6.

Leaving out cooling issues etc. do you think that another team could be successful in creating a carbon copy of the RB6? Would it be enough the design the car according to pictures they have or would the lack of knowledge about the RB6's philosophy hamper the success?

If this is not appropriate in this thread feel free to move it elsewhere.

Why would you want to copy an RB6, that was optimised around the now banned DDD. Far better to take an RB5 as the starting point, which after all was as fast as the heavily developed Brawn car without the aid of a DDD at the time.

The other thing with copying the RB is that you will only end up with a car which is as fast as the RB, and they have 2 years head start in working in that direction.

[i70q7m7ghw]

So many different exhuast configurations from Red Bull, it's hard to keep up. In one picture they are running exhausts similar to last year, in another they have them 'piped' to the back, and in another they've got big chunks missing from the floor.

This sort of stuff really doesn't inspire confidence, it's the sort of thing you should definitively have worked out before a test. I mean, we haven't seen this sort of thing in previous years...

Seriously, it's basic stuff. Red Bull clearly don't understand what's going on here, it's high unlikely they'll be successful this season.

[segedunum]

Seg, you can bleat all you want but there is no definitive answer to how much power each engine has. No one has released official figures, all you have are estimates based on rumour and amateur analysis.

Those figures were based on acoustic and GPS analysis which all the teams use to analyse each other's performances. It begs the question what would be official figures? Some released by Mercedes?

Less horsepower = Less fuel consumption + Less heat

Simple equation. There's only so much you can do with a homologated engine. The limiting factor is horsepower which is why equalisation is based on power and nothing else. Read previous threads if you want to know more.

Oh, and there was no way Red Bull was going to use Ferrari engines. I'm not going to go into why that would be a stupid idea. It should be pretty obvious.

[segedunum]

So many different exhuast configurations from Red Bull, it's hard to keep up. In one picture they are running exhausts similar to last year, in another they have them 'piped' to the back, and in another they've got big chunks missing from the floor.

No they haven't........... They ran their exhaust configuration from last year to start off with and then they came up with what they have now, and all those exhaust configurations are rear facing in the same area. They don't have them piped back. If you don't understand, don't bother filling threads with this nonsense.

I know imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and, as I've said elsewhere, people are getting squeaky bum syndrome with the picture of testing that's emerging but this is just plain ridiculous now......

[segedunum]

Honda's F1 team had programs that built CAD models from pictures they took (or found) of competitors cars. I've seen a presentation of all this stuff. They've had their car in CFD with a Ferrari built virtually running tests on how the wings interacted with each other. And how would that differ if you were following a McLaren, etc.

It's massive and almost unreal how much money, technology, and effort they had into this and still their cars were... well... less than stellar, let's say.

Why does none of that suprise me?

[i70q7m7ghw]

So many different exhuast configurations from Red Bull, it's hard to keep up. In one picture they are running exhausts similar to last year, in another they have them 'piped' to the back, and in another they've got big chunks missing from the floor.

No they haven't........... They ran their exhaust configuration from last year to start off with and then they came up with what they have now, and all those exhaust configurations are rear facing in the same area. They don't have them piped back. If you don't understand, don't bother filling threads with this nonsense.

I know imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and, as I've said elsewhere, people are getting squeaky bum syndrome with the picture of testing that's emerging but this is just plain ridiculous now......

I never said they had exhuasts routed forwards, don't fall in to the trap of the latest F1 'fad'.

Hacking out chunks of the floor and bolting on new exhaust configurations with what look like wood screws and washers you could buy at B&Q is not proper preparation for a test. Admit it, Red Bull were caught napping and now they're playing catchup.

[myurr]

Seg, you can bleat all you want but there is no definitive answer to how much power each engine has. No one has released official figures, all you have are estimates based on rumour and amateur analysis.

Those figures were based on acoustic and GPS analysis which all the teams use to analyse each other's performances. It begs the question what would be official figures? Some released by Mercedes?

Less horsepower = Less fuel consumption + Less heat

Simple equation. There's only so much you can do with a homologated engine. The limiting factor is horsepower which is why equalisation is based on power and nothing else. Read previous threads if you want to know more.

And those same sources say that the Renault engine is more frugal and has a better heat signature. Why trust those sources for one bit of information but disregard the other?

Also your formula is simplistic claptrap. If the engines were identical then it would hold true, but they're not. They'll have different efficiencies, lubricants, designs, etc. The Merc engine couldn't just be tuned to have the exact same characteristics as the Renault but with the option of more power. If that were true then the other teams wouldn't be carrying 15kg more fuel than the Red Bull at the start of the race!!

Oh, and there was no way Red Bull was going to use Ferrari engines. I'm not going to go into why that would be a stupid idea. It should be pretty obvious.

Indulge me. If power is so damn important...

[djos]

The Red Bull wasn't really that kind to its tyres last season. The car was designed more to get heat into the tyres fairly quickly, they got themselves into a lead early on and then they managed their pace carefully. This year they've obviously thought very carefully about the drop off in the Pirellis as the consistent laps that Webber did in the 1:23s versus everyone else as they gradually dropped off, or in some cases nosedived, demonstrated.

Have you forgotten Mark completing most of a GP on a set of tires no-one thought would last that long especially as he was driving the wheels off it at the same time? (was it Hungary?)

Sounds like it is kind to it's tires to me.