Mercedes GP W02

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

The notion that you can throw random things into a CFD workstation, get something that increases downforce and theoretically makes the car faster, throw it into a wind tunnel and then build it and put it on the car is a process that many teams have gone backwards on. Williams is a case in point.

Random? "Random things" thrown into CFD computer? I think you have a very low opinion of the people who actually put these cars together.
So what if the test car doesnt have a flush fitting bits and bobs, its test mule.
Fair enough if the the car looks like this in Bahrain, but will it? I wouldnt bet on that!

Secondly if Red Bull didnt have Newey, they would have lost much of their advantage. Its common knowledge Newey draws his cars by hand, the only man in F1 to do so...and for some time. It is a totally unique stiuation. So if any team can adopt the Red Bull ethos, they will need a Newey. And as far as I know they havent managed a clone of him. Although I understand Ferrari to be gathering DNA....

So to hold up Red Bull as a posterboy example of going about things, is naive. Nobody operates like Red Bull. Nor should any team be held up as incompetant because of it.

[RacingManiac]

I don't think they(RBR, not just Newey) draws everything by hand....and I doubt Newey does many of the drawings by himself...

[volarchico]

Reminder: Mercedes GP W02 thread...bring on the 18th so we can start discussing the technical aspects of the cars again.

[marcush.]

just a little thought:quick turnback of time start of 2009-Brawn Gp came up with their looongleadtime contender ,albeit hastily adapted to Mercedes power and went into testing showing their cards in these tests ..two drivers beaming like ...you know what I mean...the car came out good enough to secure both titles..but hey it was closein the end with RedBull catchimng them in the second half of the season big time.Brawn knew what they had and for whatever reason they showed it a bit early so other teams could start catching them before even the first race was started.
Lessons learned would say:In case you got something really important up the sleeve hide it as long as possible if it can be duplicated by the opposition.

[tarzoon]

@JET:
I like that optimism of yours.

But to be honest, and as much as I like the overall car looks and team quality, I wouldn't bet on them except to win one or two races this season.

Nico says the car felt immediately comfortable. That was one of the main reasons why Williams won so much in the 90's, as Patrick Head wanted to make the car as 'liveable' as possible, with enough comfort for the driver to withstand it for 90 minutes. However, that might have been a lot of bull#### talk.

Nevertheless, winning and losing this season will depend a lot on tyre behaviour and consistency.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Volarchico
Dont expect too much, Mercedes have said Bahrain.


Racingmaniac

Even now, though, Newey, 51, still takes a day out every week to sit back at the drawing board in his home to sketch his thoughts, from the concept of the entire car to individual parts. They are handed to Red Bull’s designers and translated into electronic programs to be tested by computers and in wind tunnels. So far, the sketch pad has proved unerringly correct.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 139297.ece

"The way I work, I try to absorb a particular problem through looking at results, listening to drivers at the circuit, looking at a problem on a computer, trying to understand how the car is operating mechanically and aerodynamically, and what problems it has. And from that, if it ticks away in my subconscious for the next week, an idea will pop out."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/ma ... y-red-bull



Its not just a Newey penned car granted. He has other computer biased engineers to do that. But it doesnt half help to have a man like Newey looking over your shoulder and giving you ideas or pushing the car in a certain direction.
Newey is the name which is responsible for the RB design, and many of its ideas are credited to him solely and the way he works.

My point here is no team other than Red Bull operate in this way. To do so you need a Newey type

[siskue2005]

but still he has only won 1 WDC and 1 WCC in the past 10 years

[marcush.]

It´s beyond me what ideas have to do with CAD CFD or windtunnels.A hacksaw does not make a carpenter let alone an expert.
What we can see is the modern world of CAD and CAM has made possible things to manufacture in certain ways impossible in sensible timeframes only a few decades ago.This very fact does not say anything about the basic concept being correct ,outstanding or just ordinary.
I have to say most of the computer generated stuff looks too good to me.the level of detail quite often plays tricks to your eye and does not really lead yourself to take a reserved position prepared to question the complete concept.Just look at the car shapes designed by our forum members.who could stand up abnd say what is complete rubbish or just nice exercise or darn intriguing stuff capable of rattling the cage of current F1 ?Most of the work looks superb and inspired but if it´s worth a penny is really hidden behind all the possibilities of 3d drawing possibilities.

[mx_tifoso]

Could we possibly get back to discussing the car and not some designer from another team? Thanks in advance.

[NewtonMeter]

Can anyone clarify the homologation situation this year? The W02 appears to have the shortest wheelbase... something I would not have expected with the moveable rear wing. Is a longer tub/wheelbase (second) car still possible within the rules?

What does the wheelbase have to do with the moveable wing?

I would expect down force applied outside of the wheel base to have a cantiliver effect with the wheels providing the moment supports. Normally, front and rear overhung elements can be adjusted to produce the desired front/rear loading. With a moveable rear element and a stationary front, I would expect the swings in balance to be more drastic on a short wheelbase car due to the decreased overhang ratios... No?

This is true. But the wing would (hopefully ) only be deployed on a straight. The balance of the car is really only relevant in corners.

[segedunum]

Random? "Random things" thrown into CFD computer? I think you have a very low opinion of the people who actually put these cars together.

I do. I've managed to see, first hand at times, how Williams has declined with such an approach..... If it increases downforce on the CFD model then let's get it into the wind tunnel. No intellectual discussion.

Secondly if Red Bull didnt have Newey, they would have lost much of their advantage.

Possibly, but they also have Peter Promodrou and Rob Marshall. Mercedes don't have anyone like them. That's kind of the point. That's why I thought Ross Brawn would have been recruiting like mad from other teams in the past year.

So to hold up Red Bull as a posterboy example of going about things, is naive.

I don't understand why you think I'm talking about Red Bull. It's the people that put the lines on the paper and tell the machines what simulations to run. There's no difference between the two. Always has and probably always will. You need well thought through ideas before you go anywhere near anything else.

[segedunum]

Problem is, had RedBull built a car that looked like W02, and Mercedes looked like RB7....

Really? Wow.

Anyway, I'm curious what people think is going to be done to this car between the Barcelona tests and Bahrain, because it's clear Mercedes aren't going to bring much else with them on Friday.

[xpensive]

Unlike other members of this here forum, I do not possess the gift of telling if a vortex turns clockwise or not just by beholding an image, but I do have a vague idea about attention to detail and what it means to engineering as a whole.

From what I can tell by pictures of the MGP02's rear, it's outright sloppy and I'm surprised to see it on a vehicle with the three-pointed star. However, there might be a logical xplanation to it, perhaps they are not testing the real thing?

But I doubt it.

[Raptor22]

typical fan boy thinking.

No, it really isn't.

Whether you can simulate aerodynamics is completely irrelevant. It's the thinking behind what you simulate, the time you spend and how you then build it that really counts, not the simulation itself, and how you arrive at what you build and put it on the car. That still requires good human intervention and why the best are paid as much as they are.

The notion that you can throw random things into a CFD workstation, get something that increases downforce and theoretically makes the car faster, throw it into a wind tunnel and then build it and put it on the car is a process that many teams have gone backwards on. Williams is a case in point.

It's by no means an automated process as you're implying. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.........

It pretty obvious they are hiding things away and therefore its a safe guess that a lot of the innovation with lie in the interpretation of the aerodymics.

Hmmmm. It's Rumsfeld's unknown unknowns again. I'm somewhat curious as to how it's 'pretty obvious' that they are hiding things away that they aren't testing. I think that would be called 'hope' rather than anything else.

Man you are something else, argueing for argueing sake.

Throwing random things? Only in your posts I see.

Every team is useing CFD to develop the aero bits, windtunnels to verify the CFD and then on track testing. SInce thats largely limited the CFD simulations of actual components is what they all use to determine if a part is an improvement.
RedBull, McLaren, Ferrari all are doing exactly this.

The arguement about translating the virtual part into an actual part is simply dsitracting from the reality. Quality of Manufacture in F1 is pretty higha dn Brackely has always produced well finishe parts. What you are perhaps trying to argue is whether the prat will result in an actual improvement to the driver. That is always going to be subjective.
Using a pretty plain clothes car at this point in time established a base line for the drivers and provides time on track since some componens can take up to 6 weeks to manufacture. If Brawn says that new ideas where still being developed in December then it stands to reason that at some point before then they opted to produce some simple body work from unfinished moulds so the could get the car on track while more intricate parts are still developed and put into production.

[dren]

Problem is, had RedBull built a car that looked like W02, and Mercedes looked like RB7....

Really? Wow.

Anyway, I'm curious what people think is going to be done to this car between the Barcelona tests and Bahrain, because it's clear Mercedes aren't going to bring much else with them on Friday.

Expectations:
New front wing
New rear wing
New molding around the rear
New exhaust treatment like Red Bull's

Possibilities:
Reworked sidepods
Reworked exhaust to a more radical location