Suspension Ideas and Questions

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
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747heavy
24
Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: Suspension Ideas and Questions

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WilliamsF1 wrote: How did this car steer, looks like that part is missing.
Image
Image

In the second photo you see the steering rod & steering arm better.
back at this time, not every F1 car had their steering rack infront of the front axle.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

DaveW
DaveW
239
Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: Suspension Ideas and Questions

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Informative & well illustrated post, Ciro. I think you must be in quite good shape....

I would like to comment on a couple of things. The first:
Ciro Pabón wrote:...on hard suspensions, as God intended for race cars to have, it's minute....
Yes.. but compromise is key for a "good" suspension set-up. Tightly sprung race vehicles "work" their tyres, limit sprung mass movement, & make the vehicle respond quickly to driver inputs. However, race vehicles normally encounter vertical disturbances from track irregularities, kerbs & driver inputs. These result in stored disturbance "energy" that must be dissipated efficiently whilst minimising vertical tyre load disturbance (which can also cause loss of grip). That is one function of dampers, & they can perform only if they are allowed to move. It is a fact that, when the ratio of tyre/suspension deflection exceeds unity, increased damper settings are likely to reduce damper work done per cycle. It follows, I think, that an upper limit exists to (average) spring stiffness for a "good" mechanical set-up, & that will depend upon tyre stiffness.

The second:
Ciro Pabón wrote:...I guess that's one of the reasons why good F1 drivers start at kart races, because the suspension of an F1 car, at 600 kilos, and with such large tyres, moves very little...
It is certainly true that F1 vehicles use very stiff springs - at the front axle, & in heave. Suspension stiffness is, in my experience, rather different at the rear axle, & in roll at both axles - at least it is for "mechanical" corners when rear axle heave stiffness is usually amongst the lowest to be found amongst open wheel aero race vehicles in a similar condition.

I have no experience of karts, but I suspect that they do have a suspension - the chassis. I also suspect that they have an adaptive "mass damper", that happens to wear a helmet....

riff_raff
riff_raff
132
Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: Suspension Ideas and Questions

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DaveW is correct about karts. While they do not have a conventional suspension, they still have many chassis adjustments that can be made to change handling. The spindles can be changed for caster, kingpin, camber, offset, etc. Tire pressures can be changed. Wheel spacers can be used to alter track. And some classes use an interchangeable rear chassis bar to alter torsional stiffness.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

KSP
KSP
0
Joined: 29 Jan 2011, 17:57

Re: Suspension Ideas and Questions

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I want to apply more realistic values for one of the F1 mods of rFactor. So my question is - what are the typical average values for some of F1 suspension parameters:
- kingpin inclination
- kingpin offset
- caster, camber, toe
- wheel rated stiffness of front/rear ARB, springs, 3rd springs, their 4-way dampers
- damper speed when slow value change to fast?
Any info about any of these parameters please!

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: Suspension Ideas and Questions

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Why bother when the tire model (which has the absolute biggest impact IMO) isn't realistic?
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

KSP
KSP
0
Joined: 29 Jan 2011, 17:57

Re: Suspension Ideas and Questions

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I've already done tires at a fairly reasonable level.
So what about suspension parameters?

Belatti
Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: Suspension Ideas and Questions

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riff_raff wrote:DaveW is correct about karts. While they do not have a conventional suspension, they still have many chassis adjustments that can be made to change handling. The spindles can be changed for caster, kingpin, camber, offset, etc. Tire pressures can be changed. Wheel spacers can be used to alter track. And some classes use an interchangeable rear chassis bar to alter torsional stiffness.

Front and rear

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6311&start=30
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Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: Suspension Ideas and Questions

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KSP wrote:I've already done tires at a fairly reasonable level.
How exactly have you done this?
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

KSP
KSP
0
Joined: 29 Jan 2011, 17:57

Re: Suspension Ideas and Questions

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Jersey Tom wrote:
KSP wrote:I've already done tires at a fairly reasonable level.
How exactly have you done this?
I answered you in PM, but haven't yet received a response. Maybe I asked too much? :) Can you just correct my mistakes there? :oops:

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delacf
5
Joined: 23 Feb 2010, 01:32

Re: Suspension Ideas and Questions

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Other matters: I do not know if this is the right place.

I have been thinking about studying the possibility of using some kind of "plastic" to the pull rod. The pull rod would be changed for each race. What do you think about this? The problem I see is the low Young's modulus of these materials. Maybe if I have this in mind for the design of the suspension ¿?

Regards,

delacf

DaveW
DaveW
239
Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: Suspension Ideas and Questions

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Interesting idea, delacf, & it has been done before, though not deliberately (look closely at this). If "mechanical" control is important, then the requirement to install a damper across the "spring" might outweigh any theoretical benefits.

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C09
0
Joined: 07 Jan 2011, 00:46

Re: Suspension Ideas and Questions

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Hey, I'm working on an interesting and promissing radiacl suspension geometry configuration, I'll post it when it's finished.
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