Short wheelbase Vs Long wheelbase 2011

[xpensive]

[...]
Explain what MGP might have been looking for when they went with such a short wheelbase, completely against the grain as far as I can tell?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

The W01 was the shortest car last year even after a wheelbase change.

It ended around 0.7 seconds off the RB6...
Why would Mercedes persist in this if it was that obvious it didnt work? Im sure there are equally good benefits for them to remain shorter.

[Med4224]

Please, explain what MGP might have been looking for when they went with such a short wheelbase, completely against the grain as far as I can tell?

1. a shorter wheelbase aids the weight-transfer between the front and rear
2. supports a stronger turn-in
3. decreases the steering angle needed in corner

and other things which I cannot recall from my classes right now
however, that is in theory
for it to work properly, it needs appropriate packaging, weight-distribution and its benefits shouldn't be hampered by the wrong suspension system

if applied properly, a shorter wheelbase is an advantage
but it is a challenge to make it work

edit: it also suits MS driving style better

[BorisTheBlade]

@xpensive
AFAIR Scarbs mentioned in his Blog that a shorter car has a weight saving benefit because you obviously need more material for a longer car.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

All cars have the same minimum weight.

The only benefit would be weight transfer as Med suggested in his post(weight distribution)

[timd]

All cars have the same minimum weight.

The only benefit would be weight transfer as Med suggested in his post(weight distribution)

They all have to meet the minimum weight but the lighter you can make the base car the lower you can get the COG as the ballasts are positioned REALLY low. You can also play more with balance by moving the weights around. The better chassis don’t need sooo much playing with the weights as they are inherently balanced. Take the brawn 2009 which was not affected by the mods required to mount the Merc engine. The chassis was good enough that they could still keep the car in its window.

[ringo]

But what's the use of shorter when everything else suffers?
A shorter car can have less going for it all things being considered especially the aero efficiency.
Now about weight transfer, is it desirable to have more and in what circumstances?
It was said that shorter aids weight transfer.

[timd]

But what's the use of shorter when everything else suffers?
A shorter car can have less going for it all things being considered especially the aero efficiency.
Now about weight transfer, is it desirable to have more and in what circumstances?
It was said that shorter aids weight transfer.

I dont know about F1 cars but normally having a bit more weight transfer can help the drivers coax the car to do what they want more (get it turning in ect). Its a fine line though. Too much weight transfer and the car becomes hard to manage.

[HampusA]

Please, xplain what MGP might
have been looking for when they went with such a short wheelbase, completely against the grain as far as I can tell?

1. a shorter wheelbase aids the weight-transfer between the front and rear
2. supports a stronger turn-in
3. decreases the steering angle needed in corner

and other things which I cannot recall from my classes right now
however, that is in theory
for it to work properly, it needs appropriate packaging, weight-distribution and its benefits shouldn't be hampered by the wrong suspension system

if applied properly, a shorter wheelbase is an advantage
but it is a challenge to make it work

edit: it also suits MS driving style better

I´m pretty sure there are some negatives about it aswell.

Like highspeed cornering stability. Longer car, more stable.

[HampusA]

@xpensive
AFAIR Scarbs mentioned in his Blog that a shorter car has a weight saving benefit because you obviously need more material for a longer car.

Exactly. The cars have some amount of ballast weight i believe.

[Med4224]

@ ringo
everything else doesn't suffer
shorter doesn't affect aero efficiency, too short does
I don't know what is 'too short' exactly, but mercedes definitly isn't too short

what suffers is packaging and cooling mostly
thats why teams avoid it

@timd

for F1 cars or any other vehicle, more weight transfer facilitates handling, especially turn in (which Michael Schumacher needs to be very strong)
and yes it is a very fine line, it is difficult to manage it, but if they do it is very benificial.

@HampusA

yea there are negatives, packaging and cooling are enough
to discourage this idea
however in highspeed corners the determining factor is D/F and shorter wheelbase doesn't compromise D/F. Actually shorter wheel base decreases the pull the car suffers in high speed corners on its outer wheels making it more stable since the application point of forces is closer to COG and W = F x d

and yea, there is a ballast weight which the teams use to set weight distribution and determine oversteer/understeer
However, this year weight distribution is fixed, so I don't know how ballast weight factors in

[horse]

A shorter car can have less going for it all things being considered especially the aero efficiency.

I wondered about this recently and there are definite down-force benefits from a longer floor, but the car must also be more draggy, right? I mean there is simply more surface area on a long car, so there must be a greater amount of skin friction (assuming similar aspect ratios, etc, etc).

Wikipedia page on fineness ratio might be of interest.

[HampusA]

however in highspeed corners the determining factor is D/F and shorter wheelbase doesn't compromise D/F. Actually shorter wheel base decreases the pull the car suffers in high speed corners on its outer wheels making it more stable since the application point of forces is closer to COG and W = F x d

and yea, there is a ballast weight which the teams use to set weight distribution and determine oversteer/understeer
However, this year weight distribution is fixed, so I don't know how ballast weight factors in

Shorter car is better in slower corners, longer car in faster corners.

They both have pros and cons. Other wise all the teams would make the shortest possible car they can.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

With a varied take on this years rules, it seems most teams have gone with a longer wheelbase for 2011. Mercedes and then Ferrari appear to have the shortest wheelbases, although the Mercedes appears to be far shorter than anything seen so far.
In comparison its almost comically shorter than its rivals.

The question here is why have Mercedes have gone this route and what are the relative benefits to them, and their drawbacks.

[ringo]

In the case of the mercedes it's fastest on the straights so hey maybe it has a little to do with the surface area, but then again when they bust 2 huge holes in the side pods it's not something to be proud of.
They get a nice drag reduction by busting out holes in the side pods.
A cheeky little illusion there.

In terms of cornering all things being equal maybe the shorter is better. But if the shorter one falls short on other aspects, that increase grip, that the longer one enjoys it may well be slower in slow corners as well.
I don't thik Mercedes are better in any kind of corner at the moment.