Spygate, again (from No Angel: The Secret Life of Bernie E.)

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Complete psychological and chronological destruction of a 2xWDC by a rookie

Yea Alonso is of questionable character, but he was not destroyed. Shoe on the other foot time, had Lewis been in a Spanish team with a Spanish team mate, do you think after the tribulations that the team would have been so forthcoming in wanting him to do well?
Of course not. The trickle effect from that can have all sorts of ramifactions, ie not feeling wanted etc.

Of course, Lewis is an angel and has ever lied or cheated in his life before.

They finished level on points, he placed higher due to one podium finish more. Not bad for a rookie and also not bad for a bloke who blackmailed his team!
Complete and Chronological? Give over...

[mclarenmp4]

some food for thought on Alonso http://f1hooked.com/ a good read

[Richard]

had Lewis been in a Spanish team with a Spanish team mate, do you think after the tribulations that the team would have been so forthcoming in wanting him to do well?

HRT? Now that would be fun, the toys would be out the pram before the parade lap

[myurr]

My personal belief is that Coughlan obviously knew where the info came from, the impression I got from the trial transcripts was that he'd told a couple of other senior people in McLaren who knew he had the info but didn't want anything to do with it, that Pedro de la Rosa was intimately involved in discussing the info with Coughlan, and that PdlR discussed it on several occasions with Alonso. Hamilton was never shown to have been anywhere near the info, and I personally believe that Ron genuinely didn't know - despite his best efforts Mosley was never able to find any evidence to suggest that. In the end I don't think we'll ever know for sure.

Where I take issue is with the suggestion that Alonso was blameless or being a good employee. He definitely witheld information from McLaren's own investigation as the full notes were handed to the FIA. He also witheld information from the FIA's investigation and first trial. He then proceeded to use that information to blackmail the team, triggering the second trial and subsequent fine.

Where I agree with you is in that it's debatable whether or not Alonso knew where the information came from, and whether or not he spoke to Briatore and/or Mosley before the first trial. I personally believe that Alonso knew where the information came from, although it does not really matter. One way or the other he would have known the information was from a competitor and wasn't public information even if he didn't know the exact source. I also believe that it is entirely plausible that Alonso spoke to both Briatore and Mosley prior to the first trial.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

+1 Myurr
+1 Richard

[myurr]

Yea Alonso is of questionable character, but he was not destroyed. Shoe on the other foot time, had Lewis been in a Spanish team with a Spanish team mate, do you think after the tribulations that the team would have been so forthcoming in wanting him to do well?
Of course not. The trickle effect from that can have all sorts of ramifactions, ie not feeling wanted etc.

He was not destroyed but certainly unhinged. He never showed any signs of being able to reconcile Hamilton's pace and ability without there being underhand activity on the part of the team. He's even admitted since then that he was paranoid about it.

Let me get this right, you think that the team were racist? Why did they employ Alonso in the first place?

What happened was that in the early races Lewis quickly found his feet at a level just below Alonso, and then progressed throughout the year until he could really take the fight to him. I don't think either driver finished the season with the upper hand over the other, and Hamilton was certainly hindered by late season nerves and mistakes by the team which helped Alonso catch him on points.

In the first third of the year Alonso had the upper hand and all was well. From Monaco onwards Hamilton caught Alonso on pure pace and each driver started having races where they were a little bit ahead of the other. Remember in Canada Alonso completely overdriving and fluffing the start against Lewis and how despite all the incidents Hamilton was always able to pull away from the rest of the field. For me that race was the one where Alonso started to crack a bit as he couldn't understand how this rookie could beat him on merit. He made several other mistakes throughout that race whilst trying t o recover.

It was from that point onwards where the team wouldn't back Alonso over Hamilton that the relationship started to break down. Note that it wasn't that they started to favour Hamilton over Alonso or anything like that - they gave both drivers an equal shot at the title.

Some people on this board are very quick to throw around accusations of McLaren supporting Hamilton over and above Alonso, but can you actually point to any incident in the first half of the season where this is the case? Even in the second half of the season I don't you'll be able to point to any example of the team actively favouring one driver over the other, even if emotionally they were swinging behind Hamilton and preferring him to be the victor.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Myurr

You do not blackmail your boss, and your team and expect to be treated equally after that. I have no evidence but there may have been some things Alonso was not privy to that Hamilton was.
Its no secret even Alonso's engineers felt betrayed by the guy.
Im sure where it mattered alonso was treated equally, but, there is small details that could mean the difference between first and second that the team could have influenced.

You get blackmailed by an employee, and see if you can treat him equally. Human nature is a son of a gun, and its near impossible to treat someone fairly in this situation.

[myurr]

Completely agree with you and if I were the team I would have fired him on the spot. Unfortunately they were being watched for impartiality by the FIA at that point with an independent observer making sure that the team did not favour one driver over the other.

But all that skips neatly past the fact that some on this board, although not yourself, claim that the team favoured Hamilton over Alonso and that is why Lewis was beating him and justifies his subsequent behaviour. In your version of events the team was biased against Alonso after he betrayed the team, in their version of events they were biased against him from day one leading to the problems. It is that latter viewpoint that I take issue with and consider to be ridiculous.

[Hangaku]

Myurr

You do not blackmail your boss, and your team and expect to be treated equally after that. I have no evidence but there may have been some things Alonso was not privy to that Hamilton was.
Its no secret even Alonso's engineers felt betrayed by the guy.
Im sure where it mattered alonso was treated equally, but, there is small details that could mean the difference between first and second that the team could have influenced.

You get blackmailed by an employee, and see if you can treat him equally. Human nature is a son of a gun, and its near impossible to treat someone fairly in this situation.

Alonso overheard Ron Dennis saying that he really wants the team to favor black male, and got confused

I'll get my jacket ...

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

[vall]

But all that skips neatly past the fact that some on this board, although not yourself, claim that the team favoured Hamilton over Alonso and that is why Lewis was beating him and justifies his subsequent behaviour. In your version of events the team was biased against Alonso after he betrayed the team, in their version of events they were biased against him from day one leading to the problems. It is that latter viewpoint that I take issue with and consider to be ridiculous.

I would not say they favoured LH from day one, but fact is Alonso did not feel comfortable in the team from he beginning and by the Malaysian GP he had a serious talks with Ron. I can only guess what were the issues...

Also, people easily forget who made the comment "I have No. 2 on my car" after Monaco GP and disobeyed the agreed team tactics to let Alonso make one more fuel-burn lap in Hungary classification.... What I am saying that probably everyone at the time was responsible for what happened, so do not blame Alonso. I hope that this book will make some key players to shed more light on what really happened in 2007.

[myurr]

What I am saying that probably everyone at the time was responsible for what happened, so do not blame Alonso.

I do not blame Alonso for the fact he fell out with the team, any more than I blame the team. Sometimes people don't gel and for whatever reason it happened in this instance.

What I do blame Alonso for is his subsequent handling of the situation and his behaviour. Only one man is responsible for that, and that is why he draws my criticism. That he was still throwing his toys around at times last year also shows me that he hasn't completely learnt from that situation, or changed his approach.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

What we dont know is what was written in Alonso's contract.

Did he go to Mclaren on the proviso he was number 1?
Did Mclaren pull the rug from under him by launching their prodigously talented Hamilton as an equal, without Alonso's initial knowledge?

I would say any driver going to a team with 2 titles beign joined by a rookie can expect number 1 status.

What may have happened is Mclaren saw an oppurtunity to launch brand Hamilton/Mclaren into the stratosphere by having F1's first black driver matching and on occasion beating Alonso.

[vall]

What we dont know is what was written in Alonso's contract.

Did he go to Mclaren on the proviso he was number 1?
Did Mclaren pull the rug from under him by launching their prodigously talented Hamilton as an equal, without Alonso's initial knowledge?

I would say any driver going to a team with 2 titles beign joined by a rookie can expect number 1 status.

What may have happened is Mclaren saw an oppurtunity to launch brand Hamilton/Mclaren into the stratosphere by having F1's first black driver matching and on occasion beating Alonso.

I do remember MrE making a comment after 2007 that we do not know what was written in Alonso's contract so we should not judge only by what was visible to the public. Perhaps the old man knows a thing or two

[ringo]

Complete psychological and chronological destruction of a 2xWDC by a rookie

Yea Alonso is of questionable character, but he was not destroyed. Shoe on the other foot time, had Lewis been in a Spanish team with a Spanish team mate, do you think after the tribulations that the team would have been so forthcoming in wanting him to do well?
Of course not. The trickle effect from that can have all sorts of ramifactions, ie not feeling wanted etc.

Of course, Lewis is an angel and has ever lied or cheated in his life before.

They finished level on points, he placed higher due to one podium finish more. Not bad for a rookie and also not bad for a bloke who blackmailed his team!
Complete and Chronological? Give over...

Hamilton aint no angel. None of these drivers are.

But sure as night follows day Alonso is not so emotional that he's going to cry because Mclaren don't like him and they're not showing him enough love and attention.
He's a grown ass man, there should be no trickle effect of emotions. You get in the car drive it and beat your teammate; if you can. Don't depend on sabotage to tie with him to save face.

Hamilton at HRT with alguashari would not result with what happened in 2007. It took a special personality like Alonso.

Alonso was destroyed psychologically. He has never been so paranoid in his whole career. This whole discussion proves there was a mental break down. You said it yourself.

As for that pesky kid Hamilton, not bad for a rookie huh? Think about it. Imagine shumacher being mentally dismantled by Hulkenberg or Petrov?
Do you see the gravity of what actually took place in that faithful season?

Ron Denis and the team being English was the least of Alonso's worries. Any thick skinned driver could still drive around that and get results. Felipe Massa is the perfect example of a professional driver. He doesn't let talk of his "twin brother" and "fernando is faster than you" fluster him or break him down.

Alonso's issues were with the results on track. The results on the track influenced his state of mind more than anything else.
If he had the upper hand over Hamilton, he would be very stable mentally. Probably would have buried that Ferrari dirt in his backyard.
When you as a 2 time champ who beat the great shumacher twice, are being equaled and out raced by a rookie, you have to question whether it's for real or if it's a fabrication of the team. Should there be a driver better than me? I whooped Shumacher! Worst of all a rookie?!! WTF!!

Alonso couldn't help being mystified, but the way how he went about trying to understand, correct and control what he had no control over was simply outrageous.
Black mailing a team and asking that a teammate's car be sabotaged is nothing but an admission that he was beaten on all levels and it was outside of his abilities on track to suppress what he interpreted as a threat to his status.

The man was destroyed alright. Hence the hissy fits.