Mercedes GP 2011

[jav]

@Jav

You read Brawns quotes, so regards the car there is no disputing what the team principle is saying. The car was designed intentionally with the proviso of understanding KERS and tyres befre adding anything considered performance enhancing.

Unless of course you know better, in which case Im all ears.

Secondly Mercedes initially started the W02 design in July, but due to Pirelli not having fundamental data available for its 2011 tyre, Mercedes were hamstrung by what they could forge ahead with. The round black things stung Mercedes in 2010, and they would be damned if it happened again in 2011.
Knowing this, Brawn set his stall out with the express intention of understand as much as is possible for 2011. Hence why they had the nearest 2011 spec car in Bahrain's final test last year, complete with Active rear Wing.

That was December 2010.

Now going into the winter break the team may have had 2 or 3 avenues to play with dependant entirely on which way Pirelli had gone. So with a contingency plan the team will have done as many miles with KERS(new for them) and the tyres so that the numbers could be crunched.
That has been done, Brawn has said many many times, wait til the last test. They could have developed 2 development path for the W02...is that too hard to concieve?
Especially in light of the all or nothing W01 which screwed them in light of homologation.

So with a longer lead time, it means nothing with a new tyre supplier unless they had accurate raw data to begin with.....not even Pirelli had that.

And forgive me for saying, but Mercedes have employed a Michelin tyre expert so they do not suffer the kind of problems they had in 2007/8/9/10. Its an area the team are very sensitive too, so its very understandable why they have adopted this approach. But they can only go with real data.

In the end, armchair experts can sit and snipe all day, but if they could do better...believe me they wouldnt be criticising Brawn and Mercedes for
adopting a step by step approach to 2011 in the face of Historical precedent with this team and tyres.

2 quick points- I want Merc to succeed and in no way do I mean to imply that I could do better than Brawn or that I have any inside information. I'm expressing a fans frustration at what I see and I'm not willing to look at the teams performance through rose colored glasses. I've always said that they may pull this season off -I hope they do - but I'm seriously concerned and I can understand why any objective fan would be concerned.

A few facts I believe to be fairly accepted:. Brawn won in 2009 largely because of the huge prior development investment (top tier team level investment) and a great head start with the DDD. Though they won, it would be hard to argue the BGP001 was the best car on the grid at the end of the season. They hung on- but were clearly out developed thru the season. It could be argued that with lack of sponsorship, in season development budgets were not "top tier" and they lost ground.

Merc buys the championship winning team and again infuses top tier team resources BUT the team does not deliver top tier performance. Let's be frank - they finished a distant forth. It's fairer to say they were the best mid field team than to put them in the same league with Mc, Ferrari, or Redbull. They just weren't- despite having resources to be. To Brawn's credit (though he couldn't really hide it)- they admit they pooched the weight distribution as early as winter testing. Their hopeful at first, promising longer wheel base and some other advances but in the end, they give up on the season. Their stated explanation basically- the 2009 title fight demands compromised the 2010 design so to have a chance of fighting at the front in 2011- they were giving up on 2010 to focus on next years car.

I don't think there's any dispute to this point. As a fan I can accept what happened in 2010, I buy into the explanation and I buy into the plan to fix things - But - here's where we part company.

When the team decided to pull the plug on 2010 and focus on 2011- they KNEW about the Pirelli / Bridgestone situation. You can't now say -" they couldn't do much development because there was no tire data". They knew that going in and still chose to do it so the "decision" becomes questionable IF you believe the lack of data was a huge impediment. Also- if you believe the head start was no big deal, why do it at all? Why did Brawn blame 2010 on the title fight from 2009? Thats my point. EIther you believe the team was wise to focus on 2011 early or you believe it was unwise because they couldn't accomplish much. You can't have it both ways. You seem to want to suggest the decision was both calculated and wise but unproductive. If the decision was unproductive because they failed to consider known facts- it was a bad decision. Further, when the team lays out a well documented plan - basic car tests 1 & 2 for reliability (reliability including KERS and rear wing) and tire testing - new car test 3 & 4 where focus will be performance, then they fail to deliver- an honest and objective on looker has to question why.

Why wasn't the new car ready for test 3 as planed? Was production time underestimated? Were there production problems? Were new problems discovered? These are all fair questions and, that they can even be asked despite the head start is cause for concern. Brawn has now stated the new car will show up at the next test. If that doesn't happen, will you then be concerned or can the team do no wrong in your eyes?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

From the attention to detail in their fit and finish you just don't get the impression that Mercedes are even in the same ballpark.

I guess the attention you pay to what Mercedes are doing and what Brawn has said to be just as bad as said bodywork. Kinda in Tandem you and X, arent you? I have my suspicions already voiced, that I think you share more than just the same opinion.

Jav

There is concern from those who follow Mercedes. This is a risky proposition Mercedes is attempting. But, at the very least now, they haven't run competitively against their opposition. Least of which is a car remotely in the guise of race ready.
1 second is near insurmountable in my opinion. But its not an impossible deficit, although I see Mercedes being closer to what we have seen in testing I still do not see a race winning car. A more competitive one than 2010... I hope so, sure!

In the end what detractors like segedunum and X have to realise is 1st the team dont have Adrian Newey. Nor do they have Tombazis with 200 million to spend.
They are doing things their way and need to be given the chance to do so.

Red Bull werent exactly stellar in their first 4 years, I dont see why it should be any different for Mercedes. Anyone holding up Red Bull as the poster boys, will need to fathom that they didnt start winning instantly...it took time.
Nor did the great Ferrari dream team.
Success will take time, and this is the initial phase of Mercedes involvement.

Give em time, they will come good.

[jav]

to be fair- Redbull didn't buy a championship team either. Mercedes did. If Porsche were to buy the 2010 Redbull team and they took a similar step back, I'd give them the same slack and criticism. No more and no less.

I do hope they come good. I'm on pins and needles waiting for this next test. Hopeful- but not expecting too much at this point.

[Ferraripilot]

...

on topic:
After thinking of this for a while, I was wondering how long MB is going to stick around until they have a championship? It took Red Bull a decent amount of time and now they are on a roll. That being said, would MB appear foolish to not stick it out until they had a championship? Look at what's happened to the Bull now, they are seemingly unstoppable. I bet MB would love to have that image if only for a short while.

[Giblet]

If a thread has no actual content worth keeping in over a page, is it still a thread? There was ZERO value to anything anyone has posted on here. Posts have been exterminated.

Is there any reason anyone can see to keep this thread from getting locked?

Must the bickering continue? It seems to be enjoyed thoroughly, so why not just go at it in PM's.

[xpensive]

With all due respect esteemed moderator, bickering is part of the reason why we are all here, when I believe that bickering can actually be beheld as an xtent of arguing your point. I have at times the deepest of problems with JET's rather naive take at times, but I still appreciate his posts as much as I do gold.

[Giblet]

There were a number of reports this morning from people tired of the thread being 3 guys arguing back and forth about Adrian Newey, Jaguar, Stewart, Tartans, Red Bull. I think IIRC Mercedes was mentioned once or twice in relation to these other topics.

There was a little bit in the one message that wasn't personal and over the top, but it had a personal and over the top message still quoted in it.

If it was level headed discussion and not bickering, and it was about Mercedes, the messages would still be here. Warned users just keep going, so if warning doesn't work, deleting is the next logical course.

[xpensive]

Difficult to argue with unknown quantities honorable moderator, but I find it just a bit unlikely that any of those reported complaints came from either of the above posters?

And what if it did, JET, seg, Ferraripilot and myself have all diametrically different opinions on where MGP is headed,
which is the way it should be in my opinion, as long as nobody is calling out the other to settle things outside?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

X

The facts here are simple. The car isnt up to scratch....yet.

No naivety.

But there is a contingency, one that was planned as far back as the inception of the car design. If it fails, then they can still finish 7th and equal Red Bulls record at the same time(2nd year) during their initial involvement.

I still love you man

[xpensive]

Sentiments are mutual, my favourite Portugee.

However, the W02 is to my mind showing not many forgiving angles, while the entire management of the team seems to be at a bit of a loss.

I hold the deppest respect for Daimler as a company, save the A1 perhaps, but at this occation I'm afraid that they have taken the task at hand too lightly, possibly taking the CVs of some of their eployees a bit too much at face value?

[Raptor22]

@Jav

You read Brawns quotes, so regards the car there is no disputing what the team principle is saying. The car was designed intentionally with the proviso of understanding KERS and tyres befre adding anything considered performance enhancing.

Unless of course you know better, in which case Im all ears.

Secondly Mercedes initially started the W02 design in July, but due to Pirelli not having fundamental data available for its 2011 tyre, Mercedes were hamstrung by what they could forge ahead with. The round black things stung Mercedes in 2010, and they would be damned if it happened again in 2011.
Knowing this, Brawn set his stall out with the express intention of understand as much as is possible for 2011. Hence why they had the nearest 2011 spec car in Bahrain's final test last year, complete with Active rear Wing.

That was December 2010.

Now going into the winter break the team may have had 2 or 3 avenues to play with dependant entirely on which way Pirelli had gone. So with a contingency plan the team will have done as many miles with KERS(new for them) and the tyres so that the numbers could be crunched.
That has been done, Brawn has said many many times, wait til the last test. They could have developed 2 development path for the W02...is that too hard to concieve?
Especially in light of the all or nothing W01 which screwed them in light of homologation.

So with a longer lead time, it means nothing with a new tyre supplier unless they had accurate raw data to begin with.....not even Pirelli had that.

And forgive me for saying, but Mercedes have employed a Michelin tyre expert so they do not suffer the kind of problems they had in 2007/8/9/10. Its an area the team are very sensitive too, so its very understandable why they have adopted this approach. But they can only go with real data.

In the end, armchair experts can sit and snipe all day, but if they could do better...believe me they wouldnt be criticising Brawn and Mercedes for
adopting a step by step approach to 2011 in the face of Historical precedent with this team and tyres.

2 quick points- I want Merc to succeed and in no way do I mean to imply that I could do better than Brawn or that I have any inside information. I'm expressing a fans frustration at what I see and I'm not willing to look at the teams performance through rose colored glasses. I've always said that they may pull this season off -I hope they do - but I'm seriously concerned and I can understand why any objective fan would be concerned.

A few facts I believe to be fairly accepted:. Brawn won in 2009 largely because of the huge prior development investment (top tier team level investment) and a great head start with the DDD. Though they won, it would be hard to argue the BGP001 was the best car on the grid at the end of the season. They hung on- but were clearly out developed thru the season. It could be argued that with lack of sponsorship, in season development budgets were not "top tier" and they lost ground.

Merc buys the championship winning team and again infuses top tier team resources BUT the team does not deliver top tier performance. Let's be frank - they finished a distant forth. It's fairer to say they were the best mid field team than to put them in the same league with Mc, Ferrari, or Redbull. They just weren't- despite having resources to be. To Brawn's credit (though he couldn't really hide it)- they admit they pooched the weight distribution as early as winter testing. Their hopeful at first, promising longer wheel base and some other advances but in the end, they give up on the season. Their stated explanation basically- the 2009 title fight demands compromised the 2010 design so to have a chance of fighting at the front in 2011- they were giving up on 2010 to focus on next years car.

I don't think there's any dispute to this point. As a fan I can accept what happened in 2010, I buy into the explanation and I buy into the plan to fix things - But - here's where we part company.

When the team decided to pull the plug on 2010 and focus on 2011- they KNEW about the Pirelli / Bridgestone situation. You can't now say -" they couldn't do much development because there was no tire data". They knew that going in and still chose to do it so the "decision" becomes questionable IF you believe the lack of data was a huge impediment. Also- if you believe the head start was no big deal, why do it at all? Why did Brawn blame 2010 on the title fight from 2009? Thats my point. EIther you believe the team was wise to focus on 2011 early or you believe it was unwise because they couldn't accomplish much. You can't have it both ways. You seem to want to suggest the decision was both calculated and wise but unproductive. If the decision was unproductive because they failed to consider known facts- it was a bad decision. Further, when the team lays out a well documented plan - basic car tests 1 & 2 for reliability (reliability including KERS and rear wing) and tire testing - new car test 3 & 4 where focus will be performance, then they fail to deliver- an honest and objective on looker has to question why.

Why wasn't the new car ready for test 3 as planed? Was production time underestimated? Were there production problems? Were new problems discovered? These are all fair questions and, that they can even be asked despite the head start is cause for concern. Brawn has now stated the new car will show up at the next test. If that doesn't happen, will you then be concerned or can the team do no wrong in your eyes?

Ok lets upack all this linearly.
Honda pulls outafter spending huge cash to vdevelop BGP001.
BGP001 is class of the field in 2009 first half of the season.
BGP001 drops back grdaullay thereafter but stays around 4th best and still wins the championship.
BGP002 is on the drawing board but theres little cash for developing the car and designing the new one so the budget is split because Brawn has a plan.

Brawns pan come to fruition and Merc buys Brawn end of 2009.
Merc takes 75%.1 ownership of Brawn Gp with Aabar Investements and rebrands, restructuring only starts at end of February 2010.
Merc cash starts flwoing in by end April beginning MAy.
Merc starts design on W02 in June 2010.
MErcedes GP is now operating as a resource restricted F1 team (the basis on which Mercedes bought Brawn GP)
Brawn present to Mercedes the plan for further resourse spend in end 2010 into 2011 season.
Mercedes want value for money but a performance increase thrown. Brawn's project plan has several milestones.
1 )understand tyre issues
2) design a car that uses Pirelli guesstimates on compounds performance, adhesion properties construction ideal slip angle etc.
3) test car, verify issues resolved.
4) produce final aerodynamic and mechanical package based on info gained from Pirelli tyre test.
5) test final package
race car
6) improve on 4th position in world championship an win a few races.

fairly oversimplified but essentially it captures what Brawn would be using to convince his bosses that he is spending their money wisely.

that MErcedes are holding the purse strings tightly is an illustration that they want the folk at BRackleyto show them that they bought a good investment.
Now Mercedeshas just bought out the remaining 24.9% from Brawn so clearly they think they areinvesting their money wisely. Brawn is now not just a shareholder he is an employee with a performance contract that says perform or you are out.

Now I've been through the interview process with Mercedes BEnz. Its a pretty rigourous aptitude and psychological assessment. I ultimately turned them down and opted into aerospace instead. They don't hire dullards so I can only assume that everyone back at Brackely had to go through pretty similat assessment before being taken on board as a Mercedes Benz employee.

So in the cauldron we have a Mercedes Benz take over. restructuring so the org fits Mercedes needs whilsst operating under Mercedes imposed resource restrictions, they still have to design a car and run the current one. All in all I'd say 2010 was a tough year for MErcedes GP.

So just because they started designing the W02 in July does not mean they had the budget to work on it 24/7 as may happen at McLaren and Ferrari in the F1 spending haydays of the mid first decade of the 21st century.

sure in 2010 Mercedes kep telling us that they would be introducing new parts and a lot of th time the new parts bore a passing resemblance to the parts that were fitted previously. that does not do justice to the fact that the car improved as the year went on. So parts did change even though perhaps not all was a visible as some of us would like it to be.
Did Brawn lie? No. He may have been providing a view as he is required to do. Often that view did translate to a on track improvement and sometimes it did not. that does not make them liars not deservng of the vitriole that is spewed from certain keyboards.

are the folks at Brackely incompetant as Seg and X would have you believe. I doubt Mercedes would keep them around.
So if they're not incompetant then what are they? IMO they're a team that has just come out of the toughest year of their existence and has produced a car is fairly basic inorder to a simple startng point for development. JOrdan GP did the same with their EJ191.
There is much to be said for tarting simpl when one has just wandered out of the wildernes.

I guess the Xpectations of some is just too high aso they have to vent their anger on internet forums. Those folk I think , need a life. Mercedes GP seem to be working to a plan, So I vote to view how the plan unfolds. If they fail and the dog is a dog then I will spend the year living in hope of a great result.
If the car is a gem I will spend the year living in hope of WDC #8.

Eitehr way as a Mercedes fan I have a lot to look forward to.

X says JET is naive. Wow, having a bit of belief or hope is naive?...

[xpensive]

As far as I have learned though the years, there can be a very thin line between mediocrity and incompetence.

Xcellence however, that rare bird stands out like a Scarlett Johanssen poster everywhere you turn your head.

[Hangaku]

What is startling, is that since Mercedes started "running" their own team, both McLaren and Mercedes have suffered. Before the buyout of BGP, they were looking good together. Was this a big mistake? Are Mercedes looking a bit silly now?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

+1 Raptor
+1 X( )

@Hangaku

At the risk of deviating 1 degree off topic, I would say Mercedes have indeed done the right thing.
Mclaren benefited more from Mercedes than Mercedes did from Mclaren.
Witness how they went from middle road has beens in 1993(similar to Williams now), to fully re invented with state of the art facilies and a production car on sale.

Mercedes had alot to do with this. Thats not to say Mercedes didnt get any Kudos from Mclaren association, because they did, alot.

Why would Daimler directly enrich an on road competitor? This is the question.
Hence why Mercedes went it alone.

You also have to factor in Spy gate, which Mercedes were non to pleased about, and then liegate, along with a double world championship winning team up for grabs for near peanuts and you have a perfect situation for Mercedes to start afresh.

Mercedes have looked worse with Mclaren, so lets just see what they actually have in store before we jump to any conclusions

[Giblet]

See, what I fail to understand about Mercedes fans, is why? They were not a team, they were a technology partner to an actual team. More precisely, they made and built engines.

Now that they bought the boom and bust Honda team, everyone is expecting amazing things out of them.

My question is why? I expect amazing things from Mclaren, Red Bull, and Ferrari, as they have already delivered them in the past.

What is the appeal of the Mercedes team in it's current guise?