Japanese Earthquake

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timbo
timbo
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Re: Japanese Earthquake

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manchild wrote:Perhaps now there's a chance for really clean technologies and fuels to see the light of day after being hidden in bottom drawers of institutions controlled by oil and nuclear corporations.
Or people would force the comeback to the coal plants releasing thousands of tons of CO/CO2/SO2. A bright future indeed!

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WhiteBlue
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Japanese Earthquake

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forty-two wrote:I fear that more such incidents, or a further problem caused by an apparently similar problem at unit 3 in Fukushima which is using "experimental" fuel rods which include both Uranium and Plutonium, and at another site apparently not too far away.
The MOX fuel used in Fukushima I, unit #3 is not experimental. It is common practice for decades to re process burned out fuel and extract plutonium which can be used for further fission reaction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOX_fuel

MOX fuel elements are not much different in the way the reactor behaves although the control becomes more difficult. The main reason why reactors with MOX elements are more dangerous is explained by this expert text.
#Accident Scenario When Burning MOX

Accidents involving overheating and meltdown are possible in any
nuclear reactors. In such accidents, not only would readily
volatile noble gases, like iodine and caesium be released
to the environment, but a small portion of the actinides,
including plutonium and neptunium would be released. As the
activity of the actinides is substantially higher in the case of
MOX, the consequences of such severe accidents become more
serious.

When MOX fuels are used, the probability of having such serious
accidents or trouble would increase due to the high content of
plutonium in the fuel. Even if an accident is not a serious one,
it could become serious since even a small portion of the
inventory of actinides released to the environment could cause
significant radiological consequences.

According to a comparative analysis of possible consequences of a
core meltdown accident in the German Kruemmel nuclear power plant
with and without the use of MOX fuel(17):
*The radiation exposure from inhalation of radioactive materials
during the passage of the radioactive cloud is higher by several
dozen percent than if uranium fuel elements were exclusively
used.
*Radiation exposure through the route of inhalation of
remobilized long-lived actinide isotopes is more than doubled.
*The land areas to become out of use by long-term contamination
increases as the resuspension pathway is a limiting factor and
the greater part of the dose resulting from the pathway comes
from the actinides.(18)
In layman language the fuel has higher activity is much longer lived and is causing more health risk than standard uranium fuel. So if the same amount of fuel got released by the venting of #3 as #1 we can expect at least twice the radiation exposure risk and a much bigger contribution to potential long term contamination.

Hopefully the Japanese will not have to deal with substantial releases of uranium and MOX fuel and it's waste if the reactors continue to be cooled sufficiently. So let's hope the best for the next four or five days that it will take the reactors to reduce the decay heat generation.

Edit: Due to later received info fission products like iodine and caesium have escaped with the steam but no uranium and actinides from the fuel.
Last edited by WhiteBlue on 14 Mar 2011, 19:35, edited 1 time in total.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

ahmedvortex
ahmedvortex
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Joined: 24 Jun 2010, 09:25
Location: montreal, canada.

Re: Japanese Earthquake

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or find a better way to use us technologies , rather than using them to create disasters , to re-launch the $ and the economy , ...............

my wishes are for Japan people , i'm sure they will handle it , god bless them and every person seeking peace on earth .

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forty-two
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Joined: 01 Mar 2010, 21:07

Re: Japanese Earthquake

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Thanks for the info on MOX fuel WB, although in a way I wish I didn't read it as it's content makes for rather worrying reading.

Sky News are reporting that the fuel rods in reactor 2 are now exposed (although they haven't said what they are exposed to, I'm guessing that they are no longer covered in water?
The answer to the ultimate question, of life, the Universe and ... Everything?

timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Japanese Earthquake

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forty-two wrote:Sky News are reporting that the fuel rods in reactor 2 are now exposed (although they haven't said what they are exposed to, I'm guessing that they are no longer covered in water?
Yes.

marekk
marekk
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Joined: 12 Feb 2011, 00:29

Re: Japanese Earthquake

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Is there a possibility to quickly release all/most of the cooling water out of primary vessel without big pressure build-up and next just let the core to melt and fall down to secondary vessels floor ?
Should be more safe (given secondary vessel is designed and build for that) than playing with high pressure and hydrogen until who knows what.

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

Re: Japanese Earthquake

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timbo wrote:
forty-two wrote:Sky News are reporting that the fuel rods in reactor 2 are now exposed (although they haven't said what they are exposed to, I'm guessing that they are no longer covered in water?
Yes.
They are re-exposed again: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/ ... TE=DEFAULT

Pup
Pup
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Joined: 08 May 2008, 17:45

Re: Japanese Earthquake

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:lol:

Well I see the Chicken Littles have set up camp here again. I especially love this comment from another thread...
autogyro wrote:It is now possible for a large land area of Japan to be made uninhabital for many many years.
Hilarious. Well, they say ignorance is bliss.

For those of you not so deep in a 'state of shock' that you can no longer read, I'm back to offer an update on the situation, free of media meltdown.

First, the facts, Jack:

All but one of the reactors at Fukushima Daini are now cold. The last one, #4, is still undergoing cooling, but repairs to the cooling system have been made and it should only be a matter of hours before the entire plant is cold. No steam was ever released from the plant.

At Fukushima Daiichi, the situation is mixed. Reactor #1 is now stable and sufficiently cool to pose no danger, though not yet cold. #3 has a malfunctioning gauge that indicates that the water level is low, but all other readings say that everything is fine - pressure is low, radiation levels have dropped, etc. There appears to have been a mishap at #2 which caused the water flow to be temporarily shut off. This caused boiling and a water level drop. If true, then we can expect them to go through the same procedures they went through at the other two reactors: venting then flooding with seawater. So a third explosion is possible, but as things are unfolding as I type, we'll have to wait and see.

As far as radiation release goes, it appears to be minor so far. 22 civilians are confirmed to have received some exposure, most very minor - in the x-ray range of severity. Most of these were waiting for evacuation at a site near the power plant when the first explosion occurred. Three people have shown higher doses, one as high as 40mSv, or the equivalent of 2 CT scans - they were closer to the site when the steam explosion occurred. One helicopter crew operating near the site from the US carrier Reagan showed a very small exposure equivalent to about one month's background exposure.

And now, my commentary:

Hurray for nuclear power! Hundreds of nuclear reactors hit by two - TWO!!! - record-setting natural disasters within an hour of each other, and yet no disaster and even more remarkably, no significant release of radiation - despite the fact that these reactors are of the worst possible design from a natural disaster point of view. If this doesn't finally wake people up from the myth that nuclear power is too dangerous to implement, then I give up, the human race is doomed to be forever ruled by fear mongers.

autogyro
autogyro
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Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Japanese Earthquake

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Let us hope that your optimism is not misplaced Pup.

US 7th fleet moves off shore after measuring high levels of nuclear radiation over 20 km from reactor site.
They are washing their aircraft.
No release pup?

I thought it was the nuclear and fossil fuel supporters that ruled the world, at least through the banks.
What ever way this disaster plays out it will mean huge increases in price on the energy these people control the price of.

Pup
Pup
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Re: Japanese Earthquake

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Neither optimistic nor pessimistic. Just taking things as they come and not overreacting to it. Overreacting - get it?

So far, everything that has happened at these plants reads like a checklist of what could happen in a natural disaster and the appropriate response.

We will no doubt learn of mistakes that have been made, and of design flaws that have been uncovered - we are testing these facilities and people beyond any expected limits. But these will merely serve to educate for the future.

I would love to be able to power the world with wind, water or sunlight. But right now - right now - that's simply impossible. In the meantime we work with what we've got - coal and nuclear. Of the two, coal is so much worse on any measurable scale that it just defies belief that we haven't long ago switched to nuclear power. And the only reason we haven't done so is ignorant fear. Each and every incident, illness, and death from nuclear power is held up and magnified as proof positive that the technology is inherently unsafe. Yet for every death or illness caused by nuclear power, we ignore thousands (tens of thousands?) caused by coal - the mining deaths, the emphysema, the cancer, the arsenic, the mercury, the *gasp* radiation - the numbers just don't lie.

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WhiteBlue
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Japanese Earthquake

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People who are worrying about nuclear plant issues, should calm down and read following:
http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/f ... planation/
:up: I have collected the most interesting pics and text from the linked sites

Reactor training manual for the Fukushima GE Mark I reactor

3D image of the reactor design with containment and roof structure

Image

Image

image of the roof structure destroyed by the H2 explosion

Image

2D drawing of the reactor building.

Image

Design of the reactor vessel

Image

Design of the fuel assembly
by Dr. Josef Oehmen http://bit.ly/joehmen

What happened at Fukushima

I will try to summarize the main facts. The earthquake that hit Japan was 7 times more powerful than the worst earthquake the nuclear power plant was built for (the Richter scale works logarithmically; the difference between the 8.2 that the plants were built for and the 8.9 that happened is 7 times, not 0.7). So the first hooray for Japanese engineering, everything held up.

When the earthquake hit with 8.9, the nuclear reactors all went into automatic shutdown. Within seconds after the earthquake started, the control rods had been inserted into the core and nuclear chain reaction of the uranium stopped. Now, the cooling system has to carry away the residual heat. The residual heat load is about 3% of the heat load under normal operating conditions.

The earthquake destroyed the external power supply of the nuclear reactor. That is one of the most serious accidents for a nuclear power plant, and accordingly, a “plant black out” receives a lot of attention when designing backup systems. The power is needed to keep the coolant pumps working. Since the power plant had been shut down, it cannot produce any electricity by itself any more.

Things were going well for an hour. One set of multiple sets of emergency Diesel power generators kicked in and provided the electricity that was needed. Then the Tsunami came, much bigger than people had expected when building the power plant (see above, factor 7). The tsunami took out all multiple sets of backup Diesel generators.

When designing a nuclear power plant, engineers follow a philosophy called “Defense of Depth”. That means that you first build everything to withstand the worst catastrophe you can imagine, and then design the plant in such a way that it can still handle one system failure (that you thought could never happen) after the other. A tsunami taking out all backup power in one swift strike is such a scenario. The last line of defense is putting everything into the third containment (see above), that will keep everything, whatever the mess, control rods in our out, core molten or not, inside the reactor.

When the diesel generators were gone, the reactor operators switched to emergency battery power. The batteries were designed as one of the backups to the backups, to provide power for cooling the core for 8 hours. And they did.

Within the 8 hours, another power source had to be found and connected to the power plant. The power grid was down due to the earthquake. The diesel generators were destroyed by the tsunami. So mobile diesel generators were trucked in.

This is where things started to go seriously wrong. The external power generators could not be connected to the power plant (the plugs did not fit). So after the batteries ran out, the residual heat could not be carried away any more.

At this point the plant operators begin to follow emergency procedures that are in place for a “loss of cooling event”. It is again a step along the “Depth of Defense” lines. The power to the cooling systems should never have failed completely, but it did, so they “retreat” to the next line of defense. All of this, however shocking it seems to us, is part of the day-to-day training you go through as an operator, right through to managing a core meltdown.

It was at this stage that people started to talk about core meltdown. Because at the end of the day, if cooling cannot be restored, the core will eventually melt (after hours or days), and the last line of defense, the core catcher and third containment, would come into play.

But the goal at this stage was to manage the core while it was heating up, and ensure that the first containment (the Zircaloy tubes that contains the nuclear fuel), as well as the second containment (our pressure cooker) remain intact and operational for as long as possible, to give the engineers time to fix the cooling systems.

Because cooling the core is such a big deal, the reactor has a number of cooling systems, each in multiple versions (the reactor water cleanup system, the decay heat removal, the reactor core isolating cooling, the standby liquid cooling system, and the emergency core cooling system). Which one failed when or did not fail is not clear at this point in time.

So imagine our pressure cooker on the stove, heat on low, but on. The operators use whatever cooling system capacity they have to get rid of as much heat as possible, but the pressure starts building up. The priority now is to maintain integrity of the first containment (keep temperature of the fuel rods below 2200°C), as well as the second containment, the pressure cooker. In order to maintain integrity of the pressure cooker (the second containment), the pressure has to be released from time to time. Because the ability to do that in an emergency is so important, the reactor has 11 pressure release valves. The operators now started venting steam from time to time to control the pressure. The temperature at this stage was about 550°C.

This is when the reports about “radiation leakage” starting coming in. I believe I explained above why venting the steam is theoretically the same as releasing radiation into the environment, but why it was and is not dangerous. The radioactive nitrogen as well as the noble gases do not pose a threat to human health.

At some stage during this venting, the explosion occurred. The explosion took place outside of the third containment (our “last line of defense”), and the reactor building. Remember that the reactor building has no function in keeping the radioactivity contained. It is not entirely clear yet what has happened, but this is the likely scenario: The operators decided to vent the steam from the pressure vessel not directly into the environment, but into the space between the third containment and the reactor building (to give the radioactivity in the steam more time to subside). The problem is that at the high temperatures that the core had reached at this stage, water molecules can “disassociate” into oxygen and hydrogen – an explosive mixture. And it did explode, outside the third containment, damaging the reactor building around. It was that sort of explosion, but inside the pressure vessel (because it was badly designed and not managed properly by the operators) that lead to the explosion of Chernobyl. This was never a risk at Fukushima. The problem of hydrogen-oxygen formation is one of the biggies when you design a power plant (if you are not Soviet, that is), so the reactor is build and operated in a way it cannot happen inside the containment. It happened outside, which was not intended but a possible scenario and OK, because it did not pose a risk for the containment.

So the pressure was under control, as steam was vented. Now, if you keep boiling your pot, the problem is that the water level will keep falling and falling. The core is covered by several meters of water in order to allow for some time to pass (hours, days) before it gets exposed. Once the rods start to be exposed at the top, the exposed parts will reach the critical temperature of 2200 °C after about 45 minutes. This is when the first containment, the Zircaloy tube, would fail.

And this started to happen. The cooling could not be restored before there was some (very limited, but still) damage to the casing of some of the fuel. The nuclear material itself was still intact, but the surrounding Zircaloy shell had started melting. What happened now is that some of the byproducts of the uranium decay – radioactive Cesium and Iodine – started to mix with the steam. The big problem, uranium, was still under control, because the uranium oxide rods were good until 3000 °C. It is confirmed that a very small amount of Cesium and Iodine was measured in the steam that was released into the atmosphere.

It seems this was the “go signal” for a major plan B. The small amounts of Cesium that were measured told the operators that the first containment on one of the rods somewhere was about to give. The Plan A had been to restore one of the regular cooling systems to the core. Why that failed is unclear. One plausible explanation is that the tsunami also took away / polluted all the clean water needed for the regular cooling systems.

The water used in the cooling system is very clean, demineralized (like distilled) water. The reason to use pure water is the above mentioned activation by the neutrons from the Uranium: Pure water does not get activated much, so stays practically radioactive-free. Dirt or salt in the water will absorb the neutrons quicker, becoming more radioactive. This has no effect whatsoever on the core – it does not care what it is cooled by. But it makes life more difficult for the operators and mechanics when they have to deal with activated (i.e. slightly radioactive) water.

But Plan A had failed – cooling systems down or additional clean water unavailable – so Plan B came into effect. This is what it looks like happened:

In order to prevent a core meltdown, the operators started to use sea water to cool the core. I am not quite sure if they flooded our pressure cooker with it (the second containment), or if they flooded the third containment, immersing the pressure cooker. But that is not relevant for us.

The point is that the nuclear fuel has now been cooled down. Because the chain reaction has been stopped a long time ago, there is only very little residual heat being produced now. The large amount of cooling water that has been used is sufficient to take up that heat. Because it is a lot of water, the core does not produce sufficient heat any more to produce any significant pressure. Also, boric acid has been added to the seawater. Boric acid is “liquid control rod”. Whatever decay is still going on, the Boron will capture the neutrons and further speed up the cooling down of the core.

The plant came close to a core meltdown. Here is the worst-case scenario that was avoided: If the seawater could not have been used for treatment, the operators would have continued to vent the water steam to avoid pressure buildup. The third containment would then have been completely sealed to allow the core meltdown to happen without releasing radioactive material. After the meltdown, there would have been a waiting period for the intermediate radioactive materials to decay inside the reactor, and all radioactive particles to settle on a surface inside the containment. The cooling system would have been restored eventually, and the molten core cooled to a manageable temperature. The containment would have been cleaned up on the inside. Then a messy job of removing the molten core from the containment would have begun, packing the (now solid again) fuel bit by bit into transportation containers to be shipped to processing plants. Depending on the damage, the block of the plant would then either be repaired or dismantled.

Now, where does that leave us?

* The plant is safe now and will stay safe.
* Japan is looking at an INES Level 4 Accident: Nuclear accident with local consequences. That is bad for the company that owns the plant, but not for anyone else.
* Some radiation was released when the pressure vessel was vented. All radioactive isotopes from the activated steam have gone (decayed). A very small amount of Cesium was released, as well as Iodine. If you were sitting on top of the plants’ chimney when they were venting, you should probably give up smoking to return to your former life expectancy. The Cesium and Iodine isotopes were carried out to the sea and will never be seen again.
* There was some limited damage to the first containment. That means that some amounts of radioactive Cesium and Iodine will also be released into the cooling water, but no Uranium or other nasty stuff (the Uranium oxide does not “dissolve” in the water). There are facilities for treating the cooling water inside the third containment. The radioactive Cesium and Iodine will be removed there and eventually stored as radioactive waste in terminal storage.
* The seawater used as cooling water will be activated to some degree. Because the control rods are fully inserted, the Uranium chain reaction is not happening. That means the “main” nuclear reaction is not happening, thus not contributing to the activation. The intermediate radioactive materials (Cesium and Iodine) are also almost gone at this stage, because the Uranium decay was stopped a long time ago. This further reduces the activation. The bottom line is that there will be some low level of activation of the seawater, which will also be removed by the treatment facilities.
* The seawater will then be replaced over time with the “normal” cooling water
* The reactor core will then be dismantled and transported to a processing facility, just like during a regular fuel change.
* Fuel rods and the entire plant will be checked for potential damage. This will take about 4-5 years.
* The safety systems on all Japanese plants will be upgraded to withstand a 9.0 earthquake and tsunami (or worse)
* I believe the most significant problem will be a prolonged power shortage. About half of Japan’s nuclear reactors will probably have to be inspected, reducing the nation’s power generating capacity by 15%. This will probably be covered by running gas power plants that are usually only used for peak loads to cover some of the base load as well. That will increase your electricity bill, as well as lead to potential power shortages during peak demand, in Japan.
Some other useful info:

The fuel rods are 4 m long and have fully been exposed in the #2 reactor. It is not known if or how much of the the zirkalloy fuel tubes have been damaged.
The moderator rods in the GE design are actually blades a can be seen in the picture.
Even if the core melts partially or fully the water and boron filled catchment in the outer containment can retain the molten core if the concrete/steel containment isn't ruptured. That is apparently not the case.

My conclusion: This is a serious class 4 accident with release of significant iodine and caesium isotopes. Probably no uranium and actinides will even escape the reactor vessel or the catchment pool under it in the outer containment if the information is correct. It is bad enough for the 200,000 people who have been made homeless due to the temporary evacuation. Hopefully the damaged reactor sites will not get hit by a direct quake while the cool down continues. Neither Pup nor manchild are right with their extreme views IMO. I'm not really happy that an educated engineer takes two days of research to figure this out instead of the proper authorities having crisis teams with explanation media for all relevant reactor types of the country.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Pup
Pup
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Joined: 08 May 2008, 17:45

Re: Japanese Earthquake

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Yes thank you for reposting the entire internet* and pushing all relevant conversation into the aether. :roll:



*Hey, if I'm an extremest, I need to talk like one.

marekk
marekk
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Joined: 12 Feb 2011, 00:29

Re: Japanese Earthquake

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It's still very dynamic situation in my view.
Cores still dissipating tens of MW inside of pressurized vessels, provisional cooling (heard of using firefighters pumps to deliver salt water), with no backup at all. Less or more under under control at the moment, but at the edge. and there are still aftershocks, possibly resulting in one more colling failure.
Looking at WB's pictures worse scenario will be core meltdown due to partial/total exposure, disintegration, falling down (some amount of water still there, so very quick pressure increase), eventually reactor's pressure vessel failure.
Still wondering, why take the risk of explosion, why not just let the core melt and catch it in this secondary concrete containment ?

Pup
Pup
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Joined: 08 May 2008, 17:45

Re: Japanese Earthquake

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marekk wrote:Still wondering, why take the risk of explosion, why not just let the core melt and catch it in this secondary concrete containment ?
I think cleanup cost is the main reason. Though, you'd wouldn't want to risk having the containment fail, however unlikely. Also, prior to damage of the core, they'd want to save it was well. And not necessarily because of the replacement expense - Japan needs these power plants back on line as soon as possible. Though this plant and it's neighbor are likely to be out of commission for some time.

Pup
Pup
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Joined: 08 May 2008, 17:45

Re: Japanese Earthquake

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Also, since some people are describing the release of radioactive cesium and iodine as 'significant' -

I suppose one could call any release significant, but again to put things in perspective, I just checked the TEPCO website and they say that the radiation level just outside the reactor buildings is 20µSv/hour. With that in mind, I provide the following advice for anyone in the area who'd like to get a free chest x-ray:

1) Lie down on top of some x-ray film next to one of the reactor buildings.
2) Remain motionless for 50 hours - hold your breath!
3) All done! Now go get your film developed.