Is McLaren really off the pace?

[speedsense]

@speedsense - I'll maintain that it's an optical illusion until you show me a picture from in front of the car where it is 100% clear that the wings are at different levels. I can think of no aero reason for wanting to have an asymmetrical front wing, these cars are hideously complex and it isn't as easy as splitting the aero on the two halves of the car. By having radically different front wing angles on each half of the car you'd create all kinds of weird air flows from one half of the car to the other due to the air being directed to different places.

Perhaps, if a picture that proves beyond doubt that they're doing it cannot be found, then someone (ringo?) could knock up a quick CFD output to demonstrate whether it works in principle or not.

Whether what works in principle? If you think running asymmetrical on front wing settings has some adverse effect on the cars stability, you would be incorrect. In fact it's used in practice frequently, especially on OW oval cars both on split front wings (different angles greatly effect the tire on that side) and candilever wings like F1 wings are, with a very minimal effect to the tire (side to side) because of the candilever wings due to the common attachment. BTW current OW oval car (Indy) are also cantilever, but still run different angles side to side, as in the draft, you can put a wing out from behind a car and still have half the draft and some grip on the front.
Please give some credit, as I do have a very trained eye on what my competitors are doing for wing angles and aero adjustments to their cars. The first picture I saw of this was in the pitlane and was willing to accept the "illusion" of the cut of the wing. However from a completely different angle, no illusion here. The right and left wing angles are not the same... and this front wing has 50% of the downforce it should have, especially with a wet track, it would have 100%.
I don't need another picture, I trust my eyes...the second elements are not the same angles...And to further the question of whether the Mclaren isn't producing enough downforce, why run 50% front downforce in the rain,when you don't have to, though this a retorical question, as I believe I do have an answer to it...IMHO

[speedsense]

Myurr,

Please explain the illusion here, as to why the Mclaren diffuser has vanes only on the right side of the diffuser and not in the left side? Might explain a few things about the front wings....

http://noob.hu/2011/03/14/dcd1109ma156.jpg

[Ratatouille]

Hmm, and they also have all sorts of wiring going on in the diffuser. They are also definitely directing the exhaust through the center of it and probably the starter hole.

I am going to go out on a limb here and state that Mclaren will smoke the competition in Melbourne, that is if they can finish the race of course.

[raymondu999]

Really? How do you figure?

[FW17]

Myurr,

Please explain the illusion here, as to why the Mclaren diffuser has vanes only on the right side of the diffuser and not in the left side? Might explain a few things about the front wings....

http://noob.hu/2011/03/14/dcd1109ma156.jpg

Vanes are part of the rear wing end plates and not the diffuser

The width of the diffuser allowed by FIA is more than that of the rear wing

Bodywork behind rear wheels must be no more than 100cm wide which is the diffuser

The rear wing is narrower 75 cm instead of 100 cm (as seen in 2008)

[speedsense]

Myurr,

Please explain the illusion here, as to why the Mclaren diffuser has vanes only on the right side of the diffuser and not in the left side? Might explain a few things about the front wings....

http://noob.hu/2011/03/14/dcd1109ma156.jpg

Vanes are part of the rear wing end plates and not the diffuser

The width of the diffuser allowed by FIA is more than that of the rear wing

Bodywork behind rear wheels must be no more than 100cm wide which is the diffuser

The rear wing is narrower 75 cm instead of 100 cm (as seen in 2008)

No,not talking about the endplates but the vanes (vortex generators) inside the diffuser, visible on the right side not the left. Some times referred to as splitters, vanes create counter rotating vortices from either side of the "splitter". The vortices are created where the splitter mounts into the diffuser. One vortex per side, each counter rotating to the other side of the splitter surface. The right side has two visible, the left none.

[speedsense]

Hmm, and they also have all sorts of wiring going on in the diffuser. They are also definitely directing the exhaust through the center of it and probably the starter hole.

I am going to go out on a limb here and state that Mclaren will smoke the competition in Melbourne, that is if they can finish the race of course.

Those don't appear to be wiring, but pressure tap tubing. The "clue" to that is that they are taped down and not tied down. It would crush/close the tube and give false readings. I don't see the exhaust route, can you point out? IMHO.

[clarkiesyeah]

Hmm, and they also have all sorts of wiring going on in the diffuser. They are also definitely directing the exhaust through the center of it and probably the starter hole.

I am going to go out on a limb here and state that Mclaren will smoke the competition in Melbourne, that is if they can finish the race of course.

Those don't appear to be wiring, but pressure tap tubing. The "clue" to that is that they are taped down and not tied down. It would crush/close the tube and give false readings. I don't see the exhaust route, can you point out? IMHO.

They are using the basic set up for the exhaust in that pic, if you look where the left sidepod terminates at the back, behind the top forward wishbone arm you can see part of the exhaust exit. I'm not sure how that is being directed through the starter hole though, if it is at all.

[volarchico]

For pity's sake, the wing is not flatter on one side than the other!!!

There is no doubt in this picture, the right side element is flat, the left side is up....

"Trained" eyes can still be fooled. Seriously, at least take another look and consider the fact that you are wrong. If you approach it that way, it's pretty easy to see the symmetry.

[speedsense]

Hmm, and they also have all sorts of wiring going on in the diffuser. They are also definitely directing the exhaust through the center of it and probably the starter hole.

I am going to go out on a limb here and state that Mclaren will smoke the competition in Melbourne, that is if they can finish the race of course.

Those don't appear to be wiring, but pressure tap tubing. The "clue" to that is that they are taped down and not tied down. It would crush/close the tube and give false readings. I don't see the exhaust route, can you point out? IMHO.

They are using the basic set up for the exhaust in that pic, if you look where the left sidepod terminates at the back, behind the top forward wishbone arm you can see part of the exhaust exit. I'm not sure how that is being directed through the starter hole though, if it is at all.

Yep, see it. Though look at the cover over the axle extending toward the wheel, heat shielding from the exhaust being blown over it?.. it's open toward the rear...

[speedsense]

For pity's sake, the wing is not flatter on one side than the other!!!

There is no doubt in this picture, the right side element is flat, the left side is up....

"Trained" eyes can still be fooled. Seriously, at least take another look and consider the fact that you are wrong. If you approach it that way, it's pretty easy to see the symmetry.

So how many years do you have working/engineering on race cars? 22 years for me, I can look at a wing and be within a .5 degree just looking at it, if I know the wing, and not cheating by counting holes...
And I do understand that the second element is cut at an odd angle and that the angle of the pit lane picture may make an illusionary view but the second picture (in the rain) is a completely different angle and still puts the wing at a different angle.
Looking at things that happen in testing and the reason behind why "tests" are run the way there are is all about gaining information. There's a lot of odd things that go on in testing, especially when short on time. Things that you would never see on a race weekend, this appearance of asymmetrical doesn't even count as odd... sorry if you can't wrap your head around it but I have seen much wilder things done for testing....
Symmetry and Asymmetry do have a place in road racing and is in fact common use at some tracks that are dominant corners in one direction.
I seriously think Mclaren, used both sides of this car and tested different aero on each side, and just maybe were only concerned with pressures being produced on each side, something that a straight line test would produce enough data from the one or two times down a staight to give answers... heck the car won't even have to be fast in the corners, as it's not what they were looking at....Ah, the pure beauty of data acquisition...

[myurr]

Myurr,

Please explain the illusion here, as to why the Mclaren diffuser has vanes only on the right side of the diffuser and not in the left side? Might explain a few things about the front wings....

http://noob.hu/2011/03/14/dcd1109ma156.jpg

Vanes are part of the rear wing end plates and not the diffuser

The width of the diffuser allowed by FIA is more than that of the rear wing

Bodywork behind rear wheels must be no more than 100cm wide which is the diffuser

The rear wing is narrower 75 cm instead of 100 cm (as seen in 2008)

No,not talking about the endplates but the vanes (vortex generators) inside the diffuser, visible on the right side not the left. Some times referred to as splitters, vanes create counter rotating vortices from either side of the "splitter". The vortices are created where the splitter mounts into the diffuser. One vortex per side, each counter rotating to the other side of the splitter surface. The right side has two visible, the left none.

Unfortunately you are being deceived! If you zoom in closely and look at the left hand side you can just make out one of the vanes in the diffuser through the gap in the vanes underneath the rear wing. The other vane is shielded by the rear most vane under the rear wing. Due to the angle you can't see that second vane and the centre most channels in the diffuser appear to be different sizes on each side due to the angle.

Just as you are convinced that the two sides are different, I believe that they are identical.

Set ups for an oval track are one thing, but you are talking hear about an F1 car with 50+% different downforce levels on each half of the car yet have a symmetrical rear wing and beam wing (and I believe diffuser). I don't believe that the teams would get any useful data from such a set up, although I'm happy to be proven wrong.

[volarchico]

So how many years do you have working/engineering on race cars? 22 years for me, I can look at a wing and be within a .5 degree just looking at it, if I know the wing, and not cheating by counting holes...
And I do understand that the second element is cut at an odd angle and that the angle of the pit lane picture may make an illusionary view but the second picture (in the rain) is a completely different angle and still puts the wing at a different angle.

Some of the oldest and most experienced people are also the most stubborn and unable to see new things clearly. You are seeing what you want to see because of a built in bias that your abilities to see angles to within 0.5 degrees is infallible. I was just asking you to consider that you might be wrong, and see if a new, fresh perspective could bring things into clarity. No arguments from me about testing asymmetry and its usefulness in some racing venues - not my point or place to argue that.

[imightbewrong]

I'll just x-post this here too..

So this isn't about the MP4-26? Two different camera angles, showing the same thing, interesting that none of the other parts on the car have an "illusion" just the parts that can be adjusted up or down, interesting....
I would have concurred on the Illusion aspect on one photo, but not two.....

And to top that, the vanes on the inside of the diffuser (not the wing end plates vanes, as pointed out by others) are missing on the left side of the car and there are two on the right side.. more asymmetry on the MP4-26? You'll need to blow up the picture for this... another illusion? Not hardly, None of the three pictures is an illusion...

I'm sorry. But they are optical illusions. The last one is easily provable if you just zoom in. You can see one of the vanes between the slits on the end plate. But here, I made a picture for you, actually showing it.


Now we can all agree that pictures can some times fool you? Well, now put on some parallax and you got the illusion of an asymmetric front wing. Here, put some reference lines in for you between reference points. Doesn't look so asymmetrical now, does it?

[raymondu999]

In all fairness, there could be two angles where the lines would intersect the trailing edges, but by golly, that photo is worthy of Escher. I guess sometimes 22 years isn't enough?