Japanese Earthquake

[nipo]

If this were a debate, I would have just walked away.

But I said "God bless you" because I feel you have a heart of strict criticality, but no grace. And I feel a compassion for you for that.

Maybe we are in this heat of discussion, maybe it has been your belief for long, that you cannot see past your current views. I don't blame you. And I won't respond to the post you are going to write to attack me for condemning you as a person of no grace (I'm not condemning anyone here - hell, I HATE the word DEBATE itself).

But I wish one day you'll find that using grace to look at things is much better than using criticism. Grace brings blessings to the world and is what really improves the human race.

Again, God bless you.

[manchild]

You guys are spending a lot of energy composing posts that will no doubt be deleted.

I know, but he keeps insulting me and lying, saying that:

No amount of humanitarian or "humanitarian" work you do will change what you said about people deserving to die just because they pursuit a better life at the same time of being one of the cleanest populations we have on Earth.

Since we've came so far, despite my request not to attack me personally which he ignored and continued even worse including forgery of my statements, I can say without blinking that he's an ignorant bullish fascist without any ethics.

He is sorry for someone who uses dog as live bait to cripple shark and left it to die, and I'm portrayed as heartless because I make distinction between humans who are civilized and ethical, and those who are cruel bustards like him.

Yes, I don't feel a bit sorrow when person who fishes using dog as live bait is killed by Tsunami. Yes. I'm happy when such villain dies because that means that less innocent dogs and sharks will die.

Drug dealers, criminals, pimps, they all "pursuit a better life", and by my opinion there is no difference between them, since they kill on their "pursuit a better life".

Dogs, sharks, poorer, shorter, weaker... according to him, they all should be used by people like him who are destroying everything in their way to "pursuit a better life" for themselves, and than forcing others to face sh*t they create.

Sieg Heil Agenda!

[manchild]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/ ... TE=DEFAULT

The International Atomic Energy Agency says Japanese officials told it that the fire was in the storage pond - a pool where used nuclear fuel is kept cool - and that "radioactivity is being released directly into the atmosphere."

http://www.greenpeace.org/international ... blog/33743

Tuesday, morning - Fire starts at unit 4, followed later by an explosion. Reactor 4 was shut down cold with no fuel loaded at the time of the quake, meaning that the spent fuel pool is the likely source.

These were all thought to be hydrogen explosions (though it is uncertain). They are not nuclear explosions, as with a nuclear bomb. The risk to the wider public is caused by radiation from the reactor core or stored nuclear materials. Workers have reportedly been injured in some of the blasts.

Health and safety situation

• Most of the 800 workers have reportedly been evacuated. The 50 who remained are undertaking tremendous personal risk.

• Extremely high levels of radiation were measured around Daiichi on Tuesday morning. Near Unit 4, 100 - 400 mSv/h are reported, and levels of 30 mSv/h between Units 2 and 3. Levels were explicitly confirmed to be measured in milli-Sievert, not micro, by government secretary Edano, which means an immediate threat to health and a hundred times more than any measured so far.

• People within 20-30 kilometre radius of the plant are being told by the government to stay inside, turn off ventilation and dust off their clothes and shoes, as well as take a good shower if they come in from outside.

• Radiation levels nine times background were measured as far as Kanagawa, which is 250 km South-Southwest and very near to Tokyo. In Utsunomiya, 140 km Southwest of the site, levels were 33 times above normal. In Sendai, 100 km North, officials told everyone to avoid rain as it would carry radioactive contamination. Forecasted wind direction is South East to East, meaning inland and potentially toward Tokyo.

• The town of Minamisoma lies on the 20-30km zone, with a population of 71,000 people.

• According to Japanese government secretary Edano, Unit 4 is believed to be the source of the high radiation levels, which makes it even more alarming - spent fuel has much more long-lived isotopes than a hot reactor core, meaning more potential for long-term contamination.
What's next?

It is very difficult to predict what happens next. The situation at Units 2 and 4 is not under control and potential for large radioactive releases exists. The high radiation and damage at the facility makes work their extremely difficult. Our thoughts are with those suffering through the aftermath of earthquake and tsunami and this unfolding nuclear crisis.

We will continue to monitor the situation and post updates on this page and our Twitter account.

[WhiteBlue]

Thx, manchild for posting the Greenpeace source. It confirms what I have seen on NHK, the Japanese TV station on the internet.

For a rational discussion we can assume radiation levels of 30-400 mSv/h at the power station. If we just take the reported values and apply a 4.5 Sv lethal dose we can work out that unprotected workers will die there after working between six days and eleven hours. Not a sensible prospect. I think it is a good way to illustrate the danger.

I believe that another relevant figure is the typical limit for workers in radiation occupations. If I remember right it is 100 mSv/annum. If we apply this limit the workers in Fukushima can go home after 15 minutes to 3h for the rest of the year.

[Agenda_Is_Incorrect]

Brave and nice words, nipo. We all know the world has its problems, but it would surely be much better if people tackled them without hate, especially to avoid things to become polarized between the bad and the worse alternatives created by hate.

manchild, now you have fallen on your own "green/hate/overly-political" trap. I never said that I feel sorry for the shark fishers as far as their person is concerned. I explicitly said I'm sorry for the lost of their lives, after all they are human beings and we supposedly defend Human Rights here, which means just what I said before: you don't do the eye for an eye approach. If they are cruel, fine, pursuit a legal and correct way to bring them to justice.

Don't start defending it was nice that they died and that they deserved so in such a terrible way. Only then to call me ignorant fascist, probably because I'm not a "green" bable person who doesn't accept violations of Human Rights just because the "nature" was being somehow harmed. But hey, we all know the only humanists and intelligent people are the "green" ones, especially if they don't eat meat. They are never arrogant also. All others are red necks of some sort apparently.

I'm abusing irony, if no one is getting what I'm saying.

BTW you said and are saying explicitly those people deserved to die. I didn't lie. I bet you are one of those who would never agree on death penalty (which is something me, an ignorant non-American red neck, do not support as well) on the other hand.

That's what happens when you go deep into some political constructions who claim they are above the good and the bad and show their monstrous incongruences, you get ignored or bad mouthed. Which is another irony since they claim to be so good and tolerant. They fall into despair to polarize you with some extreme cruel political group to try to tell you are all wrong and they are all right.

But guess what, I'm not even right wing. So much for your without blinking thinking. Also, fail for your trying to compare what I said with criminals. What they do wrong has nothing to do with the human quest for a better life.

Bottom line is that you have all the liberty to live life as you wish and do what you prefer. If that means being vegan or having a different life style that's fine. I'm not blaming you for that. Don't blame others for doing nothing wrong though, just because they are doing it differently.

@Pup, dear god I hope all that gets deleted. There's enough of those bad quality discussions in our day by day, it shouldn't be taking place on an F1 forum. It shouldn't be taking place anywhere else!

@WB, you guys were brave enough to do and keep the Autobahns and prove their usefulness and safety. You proved that there are less accidents and overall deaths there than many good Countries in speed limited roads. How can the German people be overall so scared about Nuclear Energy? This is not a provocation, it's simply a question.

[WhiteBlue]

@WB, you guys were brave enough to do and keep the Autobahns and prove their usefulness and safety. You proved that there are less accidents and overall deaths there than many good Countries in speed limited roads. How can the German people be overall so scared about Nuclear Energy? This is not a provocation, it's simply a question.

Everybody can make a decision to use or not use an autobahn. You have no choice if someone decides to operate a nuclear power plant in your vicinity that does not meet sensible safety requirements.

In Europe we do not need to look so much at earth quakes and tsunamis but we have real danger from natural and terrorist caused aircraft accidents. It means that the reactors, the backup power and the emergency water supply must be designed in such a way that they can survive a direct hit by a wide body aircraft. I reckon that one third to one half of our German inventory does not fulfil those criteria. IMO they need to be improved or de commissioned. I'm being fully rational about the issue. The people who want us to take inappropriate risks to make money aren't.

[manchild]

WB

I'm following it on http://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/Hot+Topics/J ... ear+Crisis It is updated in real time.

http://www.reuters.com/ and http://www.ap.org/ too.

From latest I've read, all 3 reactors are in the meltdown, all pumps have stopped working, while the storage of used rods that are even more dangerous is also exposed to air.

People have lost faith in gov. announcements since radiation levels have leaped overnight. As said in what I've been reading, people are fleeing Tokyo as well as other places. Those who can at least. Getting out of Japan seams to be the best for anyone who can make it since no one knows where the wind will blow.

It seams now that when Chernobyl blew up, it was at least easier to handle it, since explosion launched massive cloud at once, while in Japan, there are 3 reactors and one storage open to air, emitting radiation, and melting down without anyone knowing how and when that will end.

Will the meltdown penetrate in the soil and how deep? Can it reach the volcanic mass and cause eruptions?
Will it pollute the atmosphere as long as it lasts, in other words, when and if will there be a chance to seal reactors in sarcophagus like the one in Chernobyl that still has active melted matter underneath and requires constant repairs. Having in mind frequent quakes in Japan, that couldn't be called secured at all.

I wonder what US, Russia and China can do about it. Perhaps they have something up their sleeve, some military solution to cover reactors with some chemicals or mass, but I can't see it being done without remote controlled machinery. 800 workers have been evacuated, 50 left sacrificing their life, but no one mentions some action to cover reactors. All that can be heard is retreat.

This is beyond anyone's participation.


What are the options?



-----------------------------------------

Agenda,

Human rights stand for equality between humans. Human rights don't consider the right of humans to master the planet however they like, to kill and destroy.

I got really mad and I've pointed finger towards "fisherman" who are everything but that as an example of cruel and responsible for destruction of planet.

They are responsible for destruction of food chain in the oceans. 100.000.000 sharks killed every year, 98% of their weight left to rot at the ocean floor. That is murder of the planet, just like the destruction of rain-forests.

It is in it's own way as significant as someone's decision to built NPP on traditionally earthquake soil, or to what BP did in Mexican gulf.

Innocent people are paying the price. Chances for recovery of the planet are being lost for good.

That was my point. Japan could even face complete evacuation and never recover. Millions can die. What for? For someone's greed, profit. For TEPCOS' falsification of security documents in the previous 25 years?!

I'm sorry for people who are have not caused any of that, very sorry, and I'm raving mad on bustards who cause such catastrophes. There is no punishment that can erase their intentional or stupidity caused crimes against our planet and people's suffering.

Do you get me now? I think that TEPCO and Japan gov. are not just responsible, but also have been lying all the time since Friday. When S hits the fan they will pack in jets and flee leaving common people to face the horror. I'm certain that their families and children have flown abroad as soon as the first news about NPP explosion reached them.

Such people have no nation, and don't deserve to be considered as part of one, but the brotherhood of criminals. People with such lack of empathy, from fisherman to nuclear physicist are the ones who are destroying this planet. It's not that there is something good in the fact that he died, no. If there was justice they should be in jail. But knowing that there's one of them less, it means that sea-life will get more chance to recover, that planet we also depend on will get better.

Every kid in Japan has cell phone and computer, but where were the seismological readout systems to warn people of earthquake and Tsunami? The obvious priority was to sell more gadgets, rather than to spend money on research, development, manufacturing and installation of devices that could warn about earthquake, since former are not that profitable. Politicians simply don't care. Extremely rich people don't care. Each tragedy is an opportunity for them to fake compassion on TV and make even more money during rebuilding.

So don't blame me when knowing the amount despair people in Japan feel as wee speak, I say that industrial killer of sharks aka fisherman, who uses dog as live bait deserves to die. Or idiot who built NPP knowing the risks, or idiot who sells him uranium.

What do they deserve? Tell me. To live and continue committing crimes against planet and human kind? As I've said, it would be good if nature would be selective and punish only those who harm her. Unfortunately it isn't. When it takes back it hit's in the same way it was mistreated - randomly, chaotically and that is when innocent pay for the sins of villains living among them.

That pisses me off.

Just when certain countries are overthrowing dictators while the only ones getting killed and ending up poor and homeless are the common people who have nothing to do with dictator.

Can you get the essence of my philosophy, read between the lines or whatever?

People of Japan are now paying the price for something only tiny group living among them has done. That makes me mad. Get it? That made me furious when you've equalized every citizen of Japan, good and bad, worst and best, responsible and innocent trough the fact the damn fisherman I've mentioned as an example is of Japanese nationality too. It could have been nuclear scientist who constructed the reactor or BP boss who said "lets make these pipes of thinner material and put some cash in our pocket". I'm talking about the principle.

I truly hope that this tragedy will not be in wain, and that people globally will awake from stereotypes and start thinking and living differently.

[Dragonfly]

This thread is going ugly thanks to the efforts of a person who has an agenda and does not want to accept that others may have different views. And at the same time showing no real knowledge about the nature of nuclear plants, radiation and contamination.
To claim that Chernobyl blast which jettisoned enormous amounts of pulverized heavy elements high into the atmosphere is more acceptable than what currently goes in Japan (which nobody knows for sure) is simply madness.

Every kind of extremist is just that - an extremist. No matter what cause is defending. There's no civilized discussion.

[WhiteBlue]

Germany to shut down 7 reactors temporarily amid fears sparked by Japan crisis
Associated Press / Associated Press

Berlin— Chancellor Angela Merkel says Germany will take seven of its 17 reactors offline for three months while the country reconsiders plans to extend the life of its nuclear power plants.

Merkel said today that Germany will temporarily shut down reactors that went into operation before the end of 1980, affecting seven reactors. The decision comes amid fears sparked by the crisis under way at Japan's tsunami-stricken nuclear power plant.

Advertisement

Merkel spoke after meeting with the governors of states that have nuclear power plants.

A previous government decided a decade ago to shut all 17 German nuclear plants by 2021, but Merkel's administration last year moved to extend their lives by an average 12 years. That decision was suspended for three months on Monday.

From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20110315/NAT ... z1GfVre3uJ

Actually there are eight reactors concerned by the shut off. Most people (80%) in Germany think that those units should not go back into operation. Those reactors and plants have been subject to extensive safety analysis by experts over the years and they do not meet the state of the art requirements that the German people demand for their country.

There is a pretty old decision to not build new nuclear plants but force renewable energy sources in our country.


Fukushima accident rated 6 now on IAEA scale

Japan nuke crisis worse than Three Mile Island, watchdog says

March 15, 2011

TOKYO -- The atomic emergency at Japan's Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant now rates at six on a seven-point scale of gravity, making it worse than the 1979 accident at Three Mile Island, the French nuclear watchdog said Tuesday.

"The incident has taken on a completely different dimension compared to yesterday [Monday]. It is clear that we are at level six," Andre-Claude Lacoste, head of France's Nuclear Safety Authority, said. "The order of gravity has changed."

The 1979 accident at Three Mile Island in Pennsylvania rated five on an international scale of zero to seven, while Chernobyl is put at seven, the highest. Japan's nuclear watchdog previously rated the situation at Fukushima as four.

I knew this was to come.

[manchild]

This thread is going ugly thanks to the efforts of a person who has an agenda and does not want to accept that others may have different views. And at the same time showing no real knowledge about the nature of nuclear plants, radiation and contamination.
To claim that Chernobyl blast which jettisoned enormous amounts of pulverized heavy elements high into the atmosphere is more acceptable than what currently goes in Japan (which nobody knows for sure) is simply madness.

Every kind of extremist is just that - an extremist. No matter what cause is defending. There's no civilized discussion.

Can you please name the person, and if it is me you have in mind, than please go a page or two back and read what I've written before I was being verbally attacked with insults because of my beliefs. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9637&start=107

I've stated environmental friendly "planet for all" viewpoint on this mater, and got tons of insults of someone who thinks differently. I wouldn't object reading a post completely different to mine, but there wasn't any - just furious attack on me for what I've stated.

[mep]

Well WhiteBlue the way you show this pretends like there would be a pretty good move from German government. In fact it’s a very poor one because they just shut them off for 3 months to prevent a disaster in the elections we have during that time. The previous plan was to let them run even longer than appointed and I am sure they will stick to this initial plan. It is just an prove how double tongued this government is.

[forty-two]

Does anyone know of a website where live radioactivity readings from around the world can be seen? Something like a weather station, but instead of a thermister as the input, a geiger-counter?

I understand that the first that the west knew about Chernobyl was when Sweden raised a local alert as they initially believed that there must have been a local leak, so it would be interesting to know if this situation has or is going to have a detectable effect elsewhere in the world.

I suppose that since Japan has mostly ocean for a long way in one direction, largely China in the other, the chances of any such readings being published are somewhat limited?

[marekk]

I knew this was to come.

Now i'm really scared.
Probably no more cooling for spent fuel rods either. And after 40 years of service, there is a lot of them on this site.

[autogyro]

I knew this was to come.

Now i'm really scared.
Probably no more cooling for spent fuel rods either. And after 40 years of service, there is a lot of them on this site.

If it is the same as the UK, the private nuclear company will not be responsible for any disaster involving spent fuel rods, that will be the Japanese government (the people of Japan), because of a similar criminal deal to the UK being done when the plants were built.
I to am very worried, I just hope I was not right and a major part of Japan has to be forfeit for the stupidity of the nuclear supporters.
China is just next door, I bet they are getting very scared now.

Another thing, the ring of fire around the edges of the Pacific tectonic plate has increased in energy output over the last few years. It does so in a fairly predictable cycle. The other side of the Pacific is the West coast of America, the San Adreas fault and how many American nuclear reactors?

[manchild]

http://www.zamg.ac.at/pict/aktuell/2011 ... _I-131.gif