JB's driving style versus late apex and preserving tyres

[raymondu999]

Hey all. I know much has been made of JB's driving style and how it goes and protects the tyres. I was just thinking. Most (if not all other) drivers drive a more late apex line while JB brakes earlier, then carries more speed through in a more conventional racing line.

I enjoy watching JB drive and how his hands just seem to flow so gracefully, and you can see how he has almost constant lock for most corners. In terms of a long, high speed corner, I don't think there's much difference, as most drivers usually drive quite smooth anyways. But over a short corner you really see the difference.

Now, most people say how his stable driving style, with smooth throttle/brake/steering application takes care of tyres. I was wondering though.

A late apex would:
get more braking energy
get more throttle out
have a tighter turning circle when it's turning (maybe inducing relatively more lateral load?)

BUT

JB's style would:
get less braking
get less throttle out
expose the tyres out to a lateral load for a greater period of time.

Would it be the case that there are some circuits that this greater period of time with load would actually compromise him instead, and JB would get more tyre deg?

There were times when JB would actually destroy tyres faster than Lewis last year (eg Korea, and maybe Melbourne before the switch for slicks). But I think those were more of his lack of pace/feel, causing him to lock tyres and get wheelspin on exits. When he has a good feel for what the car is doing, it seems he can last better in the conservation department than Lewis.

Any insights? Maybe tyre guys? JT?

[Just_a_fan]

From what I've read, Button's strength was is being kind to the tyres by not getting them too hot so they didn't go off as quickly. This was fine with the long-life Bridgestones. The Pirellis don't suffer from this issue however, they suffer from a physical degrading of the tyre and there is much less that a driver can do to prevent this. If the tyres are going to "fall apart" in a similar number of laps then the guy who is quicker is always going to do better.

There have been suggestions that, as it's the rears that are "failing" early, drivers who can live with a loose tail will be more comfortable. The likes of Button and Alonso who are often said to prefer a more neutral to understeer car may struggle. Time will tell. The opposite of that is that the cars might be set up to preserve the rear tyres so it'll be understeering at the start of a stint, developing through a brief neutral phase and in to an increasingly oversteering phase. How drivers deal with this will be interesting.

Hamilton put it nicely - "it's not driving, it's tyre management and it's boring" (or words to that effect).

As an aside, it appears (from an article I read in Autosport (I think)) that Ferrari may have been playing with 'curing' the tyres by doing some careful laps and then taking the tyres off and leaving them to cool. They were then reused and performed better in the later stint. If this is the case, then there may be scope for drivers to try to cure a set or two on Saturday but this might mean their qualifying performance is not so good. However, a set of tyres that is stable for several laps longer in the race may be worth more than a few places on the grid.

I think we're likely to be spending a lot of time talking tyres this year...

[marcush.]

curing or conditioning of tyres is not a new invention in racing.
In fact Formula 1 with their constant use of sticker tires is more an exception than a rule in racing.
#I have a little Pirelli tale to tell here:Working in a spec series with some Red cars I gave a race tyre supplier a call before the season as I had no real experience with Pirelli tyres.The guy was friendly and told me how to select fresher tyres from the lot you got for the weekend gave me tolerances on the springrates and also made me aware of tolerance of grip from batch to batch and he had one famous hint for me: At some tracks these Pirellis had a certain quirk to them: Do one ultra gentle lap on them and put them aside for some minutes.Remount them to the car and you will find a magic 5 tenths .But not on all tracks he added.Tell you what We did exactly this and found a staggerring full second with that approach in Misano Quali.But we found nothing in Silverstone the mechanics just loved it. #.
People have conditioned the Bridgestones off the car by cooking them overnight in the blankets I have heard.This may go a long way to explain why some teams could run very long stints on certain tyres when others could not even think of it...

[Ciro Pabón]

Ah, caramba.

[Just_a_fan]

curing or conditioning of tyres is not a new invention in racing. [...]

Interesting stuff, thanks.

@ciro

[Sayshina]

Just a Fan, it is currently massively hard to pass 3 cars in F1. The last time I can remember a trade like you're talking about being worth it was the Tag/Porsche/McClarens. They managed it by being vastly better on fuel than anybody else on the grid, so they could line up much lighter and go easier on their tires. In other words, that tire advantage all on its own wouldn't have been enough.

As far as the smooth driving style, it's clearly not an advantage right now. And I doubt they can do much to change that through setup. The weight distribution is mandated by rule now, and you normally base where you want your center of pressure to be off of where your center of gravity is, so not a whole lot to play with.

The problem Button is facing is being better on your tires only matters if you can get at least 1 full extra lap out of them, and all indications at present are you're lucky if you get 1 full extra corner. Word is you get so many laps and then they smack a wall, falling off massively. So you have to change, it doesn't matter if that guy likes overstear or this guy saves his tires, you're still running around on rain tires when everybody else has switched to slicks.

Don't fret though, it'll come back around. Maybe not in Buttons career, but it always comes back around.

[Caito]

I know here(Argentina) some bad racing tires are undercured. That way you get two advantages:

they last longer standing still, since theyre not fully cured.

in the first two lap(until the lap finally cures) you get best times. After the thrid lap, you're gone half second.

[Robbobnob]

Im not an expert on tires at all, barely know the things, but i thought that Buttons smooth entry style would have been more kind to tires, regardless of their characteristics, due to less impulse applied compared to late hard breaking and tighter turning circles?

[Hangaku]

Im not an expert on tires at all, barely know the things, but i thought that Buttons smooth entry style would have been more kind to tires, regardless of their characteristics, due to less impulse applied compared to late hard breaking and tighter turning circles?

A lot of energy for a short period of time, or a small amount of energy for longer - it might amount to the same thing, and it certainly doesn't affect lap times by any great amount, otherwise JB would be the best / the worst. He's consistent, that's for sure.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

A lot of energy for a short period of time, or a small amount of energy for longer - it might amount to the same thing, and it certainly doesn't affect lap times by any great amount, otherwise JB would be the best / the worst. He's consistent, that's for sure.

I see what you are saying, but I dont think Rubber has the same qualities at various stages of heat.
For example, the quicker it reaches a certain temprature the more rubber will be used up. The more gradual the heat build up, the less actual wear.

If it were displayed in a graph form im sure you would see the drop off is not equal.

And we havent seen the effects of what actual GP racing conditions will have on tyre wear. There are many instances where tyre degredation will not have the same wear rates as testing. Trulli trains, locking a wheel, forced onto the dirty side of the track overtaking backmarkers you name it. And its funny how its JB that can usually manage situations as these pretty well.
We will see what Hamilton has to say about the situation after a few races, I would imagine the air will be blue!

[PlatinumZealot]

Ross Brawn said that the rellis wear steadily for a few laps then BAM! instant drop off and no use! So, For a driver to to nurse the tyres for a few more laps is actually very, very risky. Imagine that drop off happens mid lap? You're screwed! that's like a loss of at least 3 seconds right there. So, conservative stint lengths will more than likely what we see this year, and so the better tyre management people like Webber, Ruybens, MSC and Hamilton can take advantage.

[raymondu999]

I wasn't actually talking about nursing tyres. I was wondering how Jenson's smoother style, with his smooth steering sweeps and brake/throttle application would change things in terms of tyre wear.

And I don't get it. You say tyre nursing would be useless/dangerous, but tyre "management" would be useful? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the two AFAIK are one and the same concept

[ahmedvortex]

I wasn't actually talking about nursing tyres. I was wondering how Jenson's smoother style, with his smooth steering sweeps and brake/throttle application would change things in terms of tyre wear.

And I don't get it. You say tyre nursing would be useless/dangerous, but tyre "management" would be useful? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the two AFAIK are one and the same concept

nursing with the driving style , managing with the rhythm put on the tires .

[raymondu999]

Yes, but I'm looking for a more technical, scientific answer

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Raymond

You only have to look at instances where the tyres were required to last, only JB could do the longer stints(apart from a couple of Torro Rosso and Mercedes Forays past half distance in some races).

Amplify this, and Buttons skillset to manage tyres will hold him in good stead again. Although by how much is a mystery, because will he be the only one doing 2 or 3 stops whereas "racers" like Hamilton do 4?

What is there to be gained?

At this moment in time we can only speculate, so if its hard evidence you require you may be waiting till mid season to get your answer.