Driver styles/preferences

[raymondu999]

I'd argue the weight never moves. Maybe a bit by pitch/roll etc, but the load acting on the tyres is the one that changes. From what I gathered in the past year, from all the threads here arguing on weight distribution vs handling, is that the increased weight on a certain axle means you need more grip to laterally accelerate that end. Specifically, from this thread which I started last year: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8951

Let's take this discussion to that thread, and so that this thread can stay on driver-centric input rather than setup-centric input

[speedsense]

I'd argue the weight never moves. Maybe a bit by pitch/roll etc, but the load acting on the tyres is the one that changes. From what I gathered in the past year, from all the threads here arguing on weight distribution vs handling, is that the increased weight on a certain axle means you need more grip to laterally accelerate that end.

How can you have increased weight on a certain axle, if it doesn't move? I'm confused with your explaination.
If the weight observed on scales at each tire, didn't change when the car was in motion and only the tire loading changed, we wouldn't need springs/bars/third springs and certainly won't need shocks...
I have a mountain of suspension movement data, clearly and precisely showing weight transfer and tire data showing it's response to said weight transfer. Though if we were talking go karts...but some do have an adjustment of the flex of the chassis is a "source" of weight transfer.
Just about everything that is done to a race car, is to control how, where, the velocity and reduce the amount weight transfer all according to what the tires can take... that doesn't mean it isn't always present, which it is as soon as the car is put into motion. IMHO

[speedsense]

I'd argue the weight never moves. Maybe a bit by pitch/roll etc, but the load acting on the tyres is the one that changes. From what I gathered in the past year, from all the threads here arguing on weight distribution vs handling, is that the increased weight on a certain axle means you need more grip to laterally accelerate that end. Specifically, from this thread which I started last year: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8951

Let's take this discussion to that thread, and so that this thread can stay on driver-centric input rather than setup-centric input

I read the thread, and see nothing that I disagree with nor that disagrees with what I said so far. I will point out however that the thread you linked is concerned with weight distribution and has nothing to do with the subject I've been discussing, which concerns weight transfer by the driver's actions of driving the car. The weight distribution has an effect on how the car is driven but not anything that the driver can change through his actions, though weight transfer, of the existing weight distribution is a major "tool" in all of the driver's actions.


I agree, we need to return to the subject of this thread.

[raymondu999]

So. Let's agree to disagree (I'm happy with my understanding, you're happy with your understanding, it works for each of us, and let's not continue any of this negative bickering) and get back. Nothing personal, just I don't really like the negativity of any argument.

So.... back on topic

[timbo]

I'd argue the weight never moves. Maybe a bit by pitch/roll etc, but the load acting on the tyres is the one that changes. From what I gathered in the past year, from all the threads here arguing on weight distribution vs handling, is that the increased weight on a certain axle means you need more grip to laterally accelerate that end. Specifically, from this thread which I started last year: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8951

Let's take this discussion to that thread, and so that this thread can stay on driver-centric input rather than setup-centric input

Well, you can say that mass never moves, but weight IS a force, and when a load on tyre changes it doesn't see whether it's because mass moved or anything else.
Change in weight distribution means that more mass is moved to the certain axle and that it have to withstand more inertia in the corner.
Although there can be different ramifications of this in "steady state" cornering vs turn-in.

[timbo]

Watched an old BBC documentary on Senna, and here's an example of his famous stabbing-the-throttle technique (red line)


But I heard that back then he wasn't only one doing it
These days drivers never do that, why is that?

[Giblet]

These days drivers never do that, why is that?

Because stabbing the throttle when you have 1000hp on tap does something. With 700-800 and less low end grunt, it just unsettles the car.

[timbo]

These days drivers never do that, why is that?

Because stabbing the throttle when you have 1000hp on tap does something. With 700-800 and less low end grunt, it just unsettles the car.

He did that in 1989-1991 (probably in later too).
In 1989 he had as much power as todays cars, not much more.

[luca]

Apparently Pirelli weakened the super-soft and soft front tyres with the latest spec they brought to Barcelona.
I wonder what repercussion this could have on drivers like Schumacher, Hamilton, etc., especially during qualifying.

[luca]

On the other hand, Pirelli's Paul Hembery recently said:

[...]
Q: What kind of driving style do you think will best suit your tyres?
PH: It’s as much a case of design set-up as it is driving style. We’re seeing quite a difference in tyre wear and usage between the teams, but I wouldn’t like to draw too many conclusions about that yet as a lot of the teams aren’t using what will be their final chassis. But there is a difference between the teams.

Q: How will the handling characteristics of the typical 2011 car, on its Pirelli tyres, differ from its 2010 Bridgestone-shod counterpart?
PH: It’s very early days yet. At the end of this test I think we’ll have a better idea - McLaren have their new car here, Force India etc, so there’ll be a wider range of cars to draw experience from. I think the one characteristic you’ll find is that the front tyre in particular will give a sharper turn-in for the driver, so they’ll have a lot of feel from the front tyre. And with the higher wear rates that the tyres are going to have, you’ll probably find that the balance of the car will change during the stint, which will probably lead to drivers having to deal with more oversteer.
[...]
http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews ... 11734.html

[PlatinumZealot]

Ross Brawn's thoughts on a car designed around a driver

http://paultan.org/2011/03/09/exclusive ... oss-brawn/

Is it correct to say that Schumacher’s lack of performance in 2010 was contributed by the fact that the car wasn’t really developed with him in mind?

We can’t really develop a car specifically for Michael and both drivers give some sort of indication of what kind of car you ought to have. They tell you where you need to improve the car and where you don’t so I think Michael coming back after three years is a massive challenge. I think he did really well and I think he will do better this year so I don’t think there is such a thing that a car that is tuned to the driver but of course both drivers give you guidance through the season as to what sort of car they want.

[jenkF1]

These days drivers never do that, why is that?

Because stabbing the throttle when you have 1000hp on tap does something. With 700-800 and less low end grunt, it just unsettles the car.

With the turbo cars, it helped keep the turbos spooling to reduce lag

[jenkF1]

Ross Brawn's thoughts on a car designed around a driver

http://paultan.org/2011/03/09/exclusive ... oss-brawn/

Is it correct to say that Schumacher’s lack of performance in 2010 was contributed by the fact that the car wasn’t really developed with him in mind?

We can’t really develop a car specifically for Michael and both drivers give some sort of indication of what kind of car you ought to have. They tell you where you need to improve the car and where you don’t so I think Michael coming back after three years is a massive challenge. I think he did really well and I think he will do better this year so I don’t think there is such a thing that a car that is tuned to the driver but of course both drivers give you guidance through the season as to what sort of car they want.

I don't think there is any excuse for Schumacher's performance. The best drivers should be able to take on any handling style of a car and overcome.

However, its no secret Schumacher likes a car with plenty of front end grip, all the balance at the front of the car. I read in a mag that when Alesi/Berger stepped into the '96 Benneton they found the car quick but on a knife-edge.

[PlatinumZealot]

I believe there are unbalanced cars that even though hard to drive at the max; at 90% they are comfortably balanced and still faster than the other cars. I only say this because a man who supposedly drives on a "knife edge" is supposed to have a walk in the park when driving a calmer car.

[PlatinumZealot]

Watched an old BBC documentary on Senna, and here's an example of his famous stabbing-the-throttle technique (red line)


But I heard that back then he wasn't only one doing it
These days drivers never do that, why is that?

Because back then when you had so much neck snapping, boost lagging torque, that even when you come off the throttle the car is still spinning the tyres. So much torque that the engine just buffers out the throttle inputs.