McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

[bot6]

I don't know how the Ferrari one is made, but the Red Bull one seems to be metal (iconel probably, see that metallic bit sticking out at the end=) surrounded by carbon fiber, which would be completely legal.

Now the big question is, can the CF withstand the exhaust heat? Or is there a layer of "heat shielding" Pyrosic between the CF and metal?

would the "exhaust cover" still be the exhaust?

[ecapox]

Do we even have some documentation that Redbull and Ferrari's ideas were banned? Or is it just some random dude guessing?

[speedsense]

any decent fabricator can build something like this from a sheet of inconel .so where is the problem? connecting it with zero gap to the floor ?

Weight... making these ducts out of inconel might tear the diffuser off the car and then there's vibration problems of using metal pieces this long mounted to carbon fiber that are being heated to 1000-1200F.

[ringo]

Whatever it is, Renault have to be using even more of it.

1.4 Bodywork :
All entirely sprung parts of the car in contact with the external air stream, except cameras, camera
housings and the parts definitely associated with the mechanical functioning of the engine, transmission
and running gear. Airboxes, radiators and engine exhausts are considered to be part of the bodywork.

5.15.8 Static components :
a) Engine crankcases and cylinder heads must be manufactured from cast or wrought aluminium
alloys ;
No composite materials or metal matrix composites are permitted either for the whole component or
locally ;

this is if exhuasts are considered part of the engine. I think they are since they are on list A of engine parts, but if they are not connected directly to the ducted bodywork, then the bodywork is not under this regulation.

So possibly the octopus box is not part of the engine, neither are the redbull and Ferrari solutions.

ARTICLE 15 : CAR CONSTRUCTION
15.1 Permitted materials :
15.1.1 The following is the list of permitted materials. These are the only materials permitted to be used in the
construction of the Formula One Car provided only that in all cases the material
...........

10) Thermoplastics : monolithic, particulate filled, short fibre reinforced.
11) Thermosets : monolithic, particulate filled, short fibre reinforced.
12) Carbon fibres manufactured from polyacrylonitrile (PAN) precursor. (*)
13) Carbon fibres manufactured from polyacrylonitrile (PAN) precursor which have :
- a tensile modulus ≤ 550GPa ;
- a density ≤ 1.92 g/cm3 ;
- unidirectional or planar reinforcement within their pre-impregnated form, not including three
dimensional weaves or stitched fabrics (but three dimensional preforms and fibre
reinforcement using Z-pinning technology are permitted) ;
- no carbon nanotubes incorporated within the fibre or its matrix ;
- a permitted matrix, not including a carbon matrix.
14) Aramid fibres.
15) Poly(p-phenylene benzobisoxazole) fibres (e.g. “Zylon”).
16) Polyethylene fibres.
17) Polypropylene fibres.
18) E and S Glass fibres.
19) Sandwich panel cores: Aluminium, Nomex, polymer foams, syntactic foams, balsa wood, carbon
foam.
20) The matrix system utilised in all pre-impregnated materials must be epoxy, cyanate ester, phenolic,
bismaleimide, polyurethane, polyester or polyimide based. (*)
21) The matrix system utilised in all pre-impregnated materials must be epoxy, cyanate ester or
bismaleimide based.
22) Monolithic ceramics.
[Materials marked (*) are permitted only for parts classified as either front, rear or side impact structures,
side intrusion panels or suspension members as regulated by Articles 15.4.3, 15.5.3, 15.4.6, 15.4.7 and
10.3 of the Technical Regulations respectively.]

Exceptions :
1) All electrical components (e.g. control boxes, wiring looms, sensors).
2) All seals & rubbers (e.g. rubber boots, o-rings, gaskets, any fluid seals, bump rubbers).
3) Fluids (e.g. water, oils).
4) Tyres.
5) Coatings and platings (e.g. DLC, nitriding, chroming).
6) Paint.
7) Adhesives.
8 ) Thermal insulation (e.g. felts, gold tape, heat shields).
9) All currently regulated materials (e.g. fuel bladder, headrest, extinguishant, padding, skid block).
10) Brake and clutch friction materials.
11) All parts of engines homologated according to Appendix 4 of the Sporting Regulations.

hard to say which regs are being broken.

[speedsense]

I think the implication is that those channels are made from pyrosic, and therefore would no longer be legal under the clarification. Venting exhaust gas into a pyrosic chamber is illegal, a la octopus and presumably a la RB and Ferrari. Renault run exhaust gas through an exhaust pipe all the way to atmosphere, not venting into any chambers - appearantly.

+1^^

[speedsense]

Question number two... is using a turning vane for the exhaust, considered part of the bodywork (ala Brawn)? "bodywork may not be used to direct the exhaust elsewhere"...

[ringo]

I think the implication is that those channels are made from pyrosic, and therefore would no longer be legal under the clarification. Venting exhaust gas into a pyrosic chamber is illegal, a la octopus and presumably a la RB and Ferrari. Renault run exhaust gas through an exhaust pipe all the way to atmosphere, not venting into any chambers - appearantly.

+1^^

just asking, by why is pyrosic illegal?

and this:

"bodywork may not be used to direct the exhaust elsewhere"

where can we find it?

[raymondu999]

I always thought the RB/Ferrari system was just that they put the exhausts down there, not pipe it through bodywork.

[ianwit]

I just prefer horse's mouth quotations and pictures better.

I don't think any team is going to quote technical details, even in future years (it would compromise future progression and developments), so all we can go on is pictures which have to be interpreted by people who must spend ages studying and researching on our behalf. Right or wrong the research and speculation fascinates me.

[timbo]

just asking, by why is pyrosic illegal?

Is it within materials specifically permitted for engines?

[speedsense]

I think the implication is that those channels are made from pyrosic, and therefore would no longer be legal under the clarification. Venting exhaust gas into a pyrosic chamber is illegal, a la octopus and presumably a la RB and Ferrari. Renault run exhaust gas through an exhaust pipe all the way to atmosphere, not venting into any chambers - appearantly.

+1^^

just asking, by why is pyrosic illegal?

and this:

"bodywork may not be used to direct the exhaust elsewhere"

where can we find it?

From Scarbs post on the rules clarfication:

This is whats clear from the info given to me by these two Tech Directors:

* only two exits are allowed Article 5.6 Engine exhaust systems may incorporate no more than two exits

* Exhausts are considered anything that carry exhaust gas to another part of the car. You cannot use 'bodywork' to move an exhaust exit 'somewhere else' ****(Brings a turning vane into question)***

* The exhausts must be made of permitted materials (Use of Pryosic has been declared illegal)


....running an exhaust inside a ducting and not having the exhaust end at the end of the duct, would make the duct an extension of the exhaust pipe.....IMHO

* The only composite capable of acting as an exhaust are glass ceramic composites (GCC). These are not on the permitted materials list, with one exception.

* GCC can be used under heatsheilding as per Point #8 on the exceptions list in Article 15.1

Monolithic ceramics.
[Materials marked (*) are permitted only for parts classified as either front, rear or side impact structures,
side intrusion panels or suspension members as regulated by Articles 15.4.3, 15.5.3, 15.4.6, 15.4.7 and
10.3 of the Technical Regulations respectively.]
Exceptions :
....
Thermal insulation (e.g. felts, gold tape, heat shields).
****covering an exhaust with a pryosic duct, can be considered heat shielding...as could the air space to the exhaust pipe.****** It is the ducting that continues on without the exhaust pipe, that will be brought into question, and is illegal...
.....

* Ferrari requested a clarification that the exhaust itself could be made of glass ceramic composites, Charlie Whiting clarified that it could not.

* Using GCC as a heat sheild around exhausts is legal, as long as the exhaust itself is from permitted materials (typically inconnel)

* This is not a new issue, GCC material has been off the permitted list for some time.

[Shaddock]

Teams usually only ask Charlie for a clarification of a rule if they are 99% sure the answer they get back will be a ‘yes’. This then stays private between Charlie and the team in question.

If the answer is no, then the question and Charlie’s ruling is then passed onto all the teams, and everybody gets an email with the response of ‘what are they up to then?’

The chances are that Ferrari are not running composite exhausts, but suspected another team of going down that route and sort clarification on the matter to put a stop to this development. This is common practice.

[Lca1443]

So could a team use pyrosic for their exhaust with a very thin walled inconel exhaust inside? Basically heat wrap their very thin inconel exhaust with pyrosic. Would there be any benefit?

[vall]

Teams usually only ask Charlie for a clarification of a rule if they are 99% sure the answer they get back will be a ‘yes’. This then stays private between Charlie and the team in question.

If the answer is no, then the question and Charlie’s ruling is then passed onto all the teams, and everybody gets an email with the response of ‘what are they up to then?’

The chances are that Ferrari are not running composite exhausts, but suspected another team of going down that route and sort clarification on the matter to put a stop to this development. This is common practice.

+1

[ringo]

From Scarbs post on the rules clarfication:

This is whats clear from the info given to me by these two Tech Directors:

* only two exits are allowed Article 5.6 Engine exhaust systems may incorporate no more than two exits
.

redbull and renault have 2.

* Exhausts are considered anything that carry exhaust gas to another part of the car. You cannot use 'bodywork' to move an exhaust exit 'somewhere else' ****(Brings a turning vane into question)***

who is saying this? It's not in the regulations.

* The exhausts must be made of permitted materials (Use of Pryosic has been declared illegal)

If it's declared, where is the official declaration? And are Mclaren using Pyrosic?

....running an exhaust inside a ducting and not having the exhaust end at the end of the duct, would make the duct an extension of the exhaust pipe.....IMHO

IYHO

* The only composite capable of acting as an exhaust are glass ceramic composites (GCC). These are not on the permitted materials list, with one exception.

Pyrosic is a glass ceramic composite.

* GCC can be used under heatsheilding as per Point #8 on the exceptions list in Article 15.1

agreed

Thermal insulation (e.g. felts, gold tape, heat shields).
****covering an exhaust with a pryosic duct, can be considered heat shielding...as could the air space to the exhaust pipe.****** It is the ducting that continues on without the exhaust pipe, that will be brought into question, and is illegal...

What if the heat sheilding is protecting the floor? The exhuast is not the only thing that can be protected from heat. Mclaren can say they are protecting their floor from their exhaust.

* Ferrari requested a clarification that the exhaust itself could be made of glass ceramic composites, Charlie Whiting clarified that it could not.

I agree, but where is the clarification?
The exhuast is considered a part of the engine, so if the floor is shaped to carry exhuast gases but is not in contact with the engine, it cannot be considered part of the engine.

* Using GCC as a heat sheild around exhausts is legal, as long as the exhaust itself is from permitted materials (typically inconnel)

* This is not a new issue, GCC material has been off the permitted list for some time

I would like to agree but i can't just accept this as fact without some reference.

I like the speculation, but sometimes things can get out of hand.
The octopus exhaust sounds cool, but at least i would like to see it and why it was banned. It's almost imaginary.