Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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Raptor22
Raptor22
26
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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ringo wrote:diesels have colder exhuast. It's constant pressure combustion. Gasoline is constant volume combustion.

So many trying to prove me wrong with no foundation to their opinion, and keep missing the target.

repeating a lack of undersanding is not going to convince those who know that a high speed diesel engine combustion takes place first at constant volume then at constant pressure.
Fuel goes bang close to TDC and burns quickly then the volume expands and more fuel is injected to maintain a constant pressure environment.
Only kow speed diesels work at constant pressure only, oh and gas turbine engines of course.
High speed diesels have more than one fuel injection event. If you doubt me ask Robert Bosch Gmbh.

shelly
shelly
136
Joined: 05 May 2009, 12:18

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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marekk wrote: OK. We need 2 estimations:
1. Exhaust exit area
2. Exhaust exit temp

Until we see better pictures (i.e. exhaust glowing in daylight) i go for 0,01 m^2 (113 mm diameter) and 900K, this will give mean exit speed of 53,85 m/s (you can use volumetric or mass flow calculation method, results are still the same).
I would go for a lower temperature (800k maybe), but especially I think that exit area is much smaller, more in the range of 0.005m2 for each side. I think the picture you posted shows this, even if in it the only thing that could act as a clear reference is the carbon weave (maybe a 11x11pic).
marekk wrote: I agree inner wall may play structural role (they'll need to precisely control geometry), but it will split and straighten flows to.
The inner wall seems very short in the picture. Do you agree or do you think we do not see the deepest part?
twitter: @armchair_aero

marekk
marekk
2
Joined: 12 Feb 2011, 00:29

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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shelly wrote:
marekk wrote: OK. We need 2 estimations:
1. Exhaust exit area
2. Exhaust exit temp

Until we see better pictures (i.e. exhaust glowing in daylight) i go for 0,01 m^2 (113 mm diameter) and 900K, this will give mean exit speed of 53,85 m/s (you can use volumetric or mass flow calculation method, results are still the same).
I would go for a lower temperature (800k maybe), but especially I think that exit area is much smaller, more in the range of 0.005m2 for each side. I think the picture you posted shows this, even if in it the only thing that could act as a clear reference is the carbon weave (maybe a 11x11pic).
marekk wrote: I agree inner wall may play structural role (they'll need to precisely control geometry), but it will split and straighten flows to.
The inner wall seems very short in the picture. Do you agree or do you think we do not see the deepest part?
Lets take 0,0075m2 and 800K. Exit speed 64m/s.
Agree, rather short.
If it's meant to help to slow inner part of flow, it have to. There is a low pressure area near inner wall at the bend, separator wall should stretch only to the edge of this area.

Slightly better analysis of gas flow around 90 degree bend: http://anziamj.austms.org.au/ojs/index. ... le/988/861

shelly
shelly
136
Joined: 05 May 2009, 12:18

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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Ok let us agree from now on 65m/s average speed on exit.

Let us focus on r31 geometry. First questions to be answered are:
-can we estimate pressure exerterd on the curved metal heat shield?
-how much do we expect exhaust cone to expand in the short space between exit section and obstacle?
-what does the flow look like on a conventional sidepod inlet? (I will see if i can retrieve a very good master thesis with cfd of an american guy called Perry IIRC, from 2008)

Focusing on first foot out, in my opinion exhausts will be:
- slowed down and opened up by the impact against the shield (so parting in two- up and low)
- deflected by external flow (approximatively a vector composition)

but they will also:
-go aroundthe airfoil shape at the fron external corner fo the floor
-entrain by viscosity local flow
-oppose an obstacle to external flow (let us call it improperly the core of exhaust) around which eternal flow has to find its way. There is a region near the exit in which the fluid comes 98% from exahust: can we imagine how big it is?
twitter: @armchair_aero

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ringo
230
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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why take arbitrary numbers?
If you fudge everything to attain some kind of common ground. The result will be highly inaccurate and inconclusive but i'll just sit back and watch from now on.
This seems more political than anything. :lol:

temp 950C, speed through 2.5 inch pipe 220, speed through 4 inch about 86 m/s. Anything beside that is cooking up values to suit everyone, and that should not be the basis for a technical discussion.
But continue. I'll keep my numbers and compare later to the number you all chose.
For Sure!!

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machin
162
Joined: 25 Nov 2008, 14:45

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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xpensive, on page 14 wrote: Would it be too much to ask for input data to the above images, such as xhaust density, specific heat capacity.. etc, etc
machin, on page 14 wrote:I hope Ringo's reply doesn't result in endless discussions about whether the analysis should be re-run with the exhaust temp +/- 5k etc etc.
yawn....

.....are we any closer to deciding the mechanism by which this thing works then...???!
COMPETITION CAR ENGINEERING -Home of VIRTUAL STOPWATCH

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PlatinumZealot
558
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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Ask Scarbs to ask on of his contacts.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

shelly
shelly
136
Joined: 05 May 2009, 12:18

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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Stagnation pressure on heat shield from arresting the flow: 1/2*density*velocity^2, with low density (0,4kg/m3) but high velocity(65m/s, maybe more).

Results becomes interesting if exhaust velocity is 1.5 times bigger than car speed, so that cp adimensionalised on free stream speed is close or even bigger than 1.
twitter: @armchair_aero

marekk
marekk
2
Joined: 12 Feb 2011, 00:29

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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shelly wrote:Ok let us agree from now on 65m/s average speed on exit.

Let us focus on r31 geometry. First questions to be answered are:
-can we estimate pressure exerterd on the curved metal heat shield?
-how much do we expect exhaust cone to expand in the short space between exit section and obstacle?
-what does the flow look like on a conventional sidepod inlet? (I will see if i can retrieve a very good master thesis with cfd of an american guy called Perry IIRC, from 2008)

Focusing on first foot out, in my opinion exhausts will be:
- slowed down and opened up by the impact against the shield (so parting in two- up and low)
- deflected by external flow (approximatively a vector composition)

but they will also:
-go aroundthe airfoil shape at the fron external corner fo the floor
-entrain by viscosity local flow
-oppose an obstacle to external flow (let us call it improperly the core of exhaust) around which eternal flow has to find its way. There is a region near the exit in which the fluid comes 98% from exahust: can we imagine how big it is?
We've discussed most of this on the thread already, but i try to summarize my view point.

1. We have 2 flows (external air and exhaust) almost perpendicular to each other.
2. Speeds of both flows are comparable and way below speed of sound.
3. At those speeds both air and exhaust gases are considered incompressible in open space, which means both are at ambient static pressure (more or less, we don't care about few percent).
4. Because static pressure of both flows is the same, there is no force to prevent instant mixing of both flows as soon as exhaust leaves pipe. There is realy not like in solids and liquids. If you happen to have 2 hairdryers at hand, you can proof this quickly.
5. Both flows do carry momentum, equal to mass*velocity.
6. Momentum of resulting flow of mixed air/exhaust gas is equal to vector sum of air and exhaust momentums.
7. If both speeds are the same (lets take our 65m/s) what is the angle to car's longitudal axis ? 45 degree ? NO. Why ? Exhaust is much hotter, less dense (about 1/3 of ambient air's density at 800K) and has less momentum - so the angle will be in the 15-20 degree range. Less for quicker moving car, more (up to about 80 degree at pit stop) if car is moving slower.
8. I think there are 2 exhaust flows at singnificantly different speeds (explanation and pictures in my previous posts). As a result, mixed air/exhaust flows cover bigger area of the floor.

Where is this flow going ?

There is strong high pressure area in front of sidepods, and even more so (stagnation
point) on sidepods lower lip. Flow from the exhaust won't go this way.

Last revision of R31's floor and as seen in Barcelona features rised leading edge of the floor in front of modified pipe:

Image

In my view 80-90% of the leading edge is above exhaust and most of gases blow under the floor, direct into high pressure area (highest at stagnation point at the edge).
This solution is draggy and creates some lift on this winged part, but must be worth it.

Now the tricky part: we don't know real pressure distribution under this "wing", so we can only speculate. I think slower part of the flow goes to the left (in plank direction) due to lower pressure in this region, quicker flow goes sideways (at an angle dependent on exhaust and car speed).

Slotted gurney seen on the photo creates low pressure area on the outside, which helps to direct escaping air/exhaust mix back do sidepods undercut and further along.

If this works this way, than main gain will be from hot air/exhaust mix as it cools down under the floor (from radiation and heat transfer to floor and tarmac), decreasing volume - i would call it thermal ground effect. Basicaly vacuum pump, but thermodynamics instead of fan blades.

How powerfull could it be ?
At the extremum (sealed system, air/exhaust mix filling all of underfloors volume, going from 800K down to 400K) few hundred kgf of downforce.
Of course system is open, part of gas energy goes to surrunding/mixed air preventing volume decrease, so we have to speculate - i go for 150kgf.

Heating of rear tyres, preventing sidepods flow separation, lowering boundary layers thickness both under floor and on sidepods - not possible to calculate, but there is some gain from this, i belive.

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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I´m amazed that noone has opted for a J-type exhaust endpiece with a long slit extension to the opening .

the idea is to have the exhaust pipe on top of the floor (as RedBull but opening not just at the end to blow under the fllor but elongate the opening all the way back towards the sidepod .you could have just a small slit in the tube crossing the floor towards the 50mm unrestricted outward zone.The main flow would surely go towards the end but you could have inside the exhaust tube guide vanes redirecting some flow over the diffusser top creating a multitude of exhausts without creating more than one opening!

Raptor22
Raptor22
26
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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marekk wrote:
shelly wrote:Ok let us agree from now on 65m/s average speed on exit.

Let us focus on r31 geometry. First questions to be answered are:
-can we estimate pressure exerterd on the curved metal heat shield?
-how much do we expect exhaust cone to expand in the short space between exit section and obstacle?
-what does the flow look like on a conventional sidepod inlet? (I will see if i can retrieve a very good master thesis with cfd of an american guy called Perry IIRC, from 2008)

Focusing on first foot out, in my opinion exhausts will be:
- slowed down and opened up by the impact against the shield (so parting in two- up and low)
- deflected by external flow (approximatively a vector composition)

but they will also:
-go aroundthe airfoil shape at the fron external corner fo the floor
-entrain by viscosity local flow
-oppose an obstacle to external flow (let us call it improperly the core of exhaust) around which eternal flow has to find its way. There is a region near the exit in which the fluid comes 98% from exahust: can we imagine how big it is?
We've discussed most of this on the thread already, but i try to summarize my view point.

1. We have 2 flows (external air and exhaust) almost perpendicular to each other.
2. Speeds of both flows are comparable and way below speed of sound.
3. At those speeds both air and exhaust gases are considered incompressible in open space, which means both are at ambient static pressure (more or less, we don't care about few percent).
4. Because static pressure of both flows is the same, there is no force to prevent instant mixing of both flows as soon as exhaust leaves pipe. There is realy not like in solids and liquids. If you happen to have 2 hairdryers at hand, you can proof this quickly.
5. Both flows do carry momentum, equal to mass*velocity.
6. Momentum of resulting flow of mixed air/exhaust gas is equal to vector sum of air and exhaust momentums.
7. If both speeds are the same (lets take our 65m/s) what is the angle to car's longitudal axis ? 45 degree ? NO. Why ? Exhaust is much hotter, less dense (about 1/3 of ambient air's density at 800K) and has less momentum - so the angle will be in the 15-20 degree range. Less for quicker moving car, more (up to about 80 degree at pit stop) if car is moving slower.
8. I think there are 2 exhaust flows at singnificantly different speeds (explanation and pictures in my previous posts). As a result, mixed air/exhaust flows cover bigger area of the floor.

Where is this flow going ?

There is strong high pressure area in front of sidepods, and even more so (stagnation
point) on sidepods lower lip. Flow from the exhaust won't go this way.

Last revision of R31's floor and as seen in Barcelona features rised leading edge of the floor in front of modified pipe:

Image

In my view 80-90% of the leading edge is above exhaust and most of gases blow under the floor, direct into high pressure area (highest at stagnation point at the edge).
This solution is draggy and creates some lift on this winged part, but must be worth it.

Now the tricky part: we don't know real pressure distribution under this "wing", so we can only speculate. I think slower part of the flow goes to the left (in plank direction) due to lower pressure in this region, quicker flow goes sideways (at an angle dependent on exhaust and car speed).

Slotted gurney seen on the photo creates low pressure area on the outside, which helps to direct escaping air/exhaust mix back do sidepods undercut and further along.

If this works this way, than main gain will be from hot air/exhaust mix as it cools down under the floor (from radiation and heat transfer to floor and tarmac), decreasing volume - i would call it thermal ground effect. Basicaly vacuum pump, but thermodynamics instead of fan blades.

How powerfull could it be ?
At the extremum (sealed system, air/exhaust mix filling all of underfloors volume, going from 800K down to 400K) few hundred kgf of downforce.
Of course system is open, part of gas energy goes to surrunding/mixed air preventing volume decrease, so we have to speculate - i go for 150kgf.

Heating of rear tyres, preventing sidepods flow separation, lowering boundary layers thickness both under floor and on sidepods - not possible to calculate, but there is some gain from this, i belive.

I'd buy into your summary

+1


Much of it ishard to calculate since we kkow nothing of certain specifics relating to the heat rejection of the engine and it exhaust system.
We know nothin of itsfiring order or fuel injection events (affected by mapping).


Marc, intresting idea but losses through excessive pipe bends do nee dot be considered.
One of the reasons the exhaust design does not turn through 180degrees is possibly due to pipe losses in such a bend.

shelly
shelly
136
Joined: 05 May 2009, 12:18

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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@marekk: I have followed the thread, but I have seen that there no agreemente has been found, that's why I wanted to recap shared ideas and build on them.

Below I report my ideas on your view point, item by item, to see if we can convince each other about some new "bricks" in this reasoning.

1. external flow is strongly conditined by teatray-sidepod shape: so in exahust proximity it will be slower and bended some 60° to longitudinal direction.
It will be more longitudinal in the layer below, that goes under the floor.
So there is an attenuation of prependicular interaction, which is somehow limited to the lower zone of the jet.
2. agree that both are subsonic for each fluid temperature and that they are comparable (you know I think exahust are faster, but not that faster).
3. we do care for pressure variation coming form dynamic pressure
4. disagree on the two dryers example, in which two jets are intersecting. We are in a jet in crossflow situation, like in the cfd image you posted a while ago. No instantaneous 100% mixing, turbulent mixing instead
5. agree
6. agree
7. agree from 6, but slightly disagree basing on my 1: I think your point 7 is applicable on the part of exahsut going under the floor, not on the top part
8. I think it could be, but I do not understand why separating jet in two parts lead to greater area covered


I think flow from exaust will partly go on floor lip (heat shielded part) and then around it. External flow will be partly deviated by the presence of the jet itself and will squeeze under the floor, as part of the exhaust will do; mixing and entraining will take place.

Agree that most of exhaust will go under the floor; raising the lip goes probably in the direction of increasing percentage of under the floor exhaust.

Agree that cooling under the floor is beneficial(inward deflection of pathlines will call fluid from tha sides of the floor).


Effect estimate: 150kgf at 60m/s is huge, some 70 points of downforce. I think half this value is big enough to justify this effort; but if we see r31 making 1-2 in melbourne hands down I will agree on 150kgf. Do not forget that external air will be called inside in cooling.

I think we can discuss disagreement points further
twitter: @armchair_aero

shelly
shelly
136
Joined: 05 May 2009, 12:18

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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marcush. wrote:I´m amazed that noone has opted for a J-type exhaust endpiece with a long slit extension to the opening .

the idea is to have the exhaust pipe on top of the floor (as RedBull but opening not just at the end to blow under the fllor but elongate the opening all the way back towards the sidepod .you could have just a small slit in the tube crossing the floor towards the 50mm unrestricted outward zone.The main flow would surely go towards the end but you could have inside the exhaust tube guide vanes redirecting some flow over the diffusser top creating a multitude of exhausts without creating more than one opening!

I was thinking instead about a exhaust shaped like str06, or even with more aspect ratio,placed outside along the floor lateral edge, blowing flush above the floor lateral edge,which would be radiussed in compliance with 50mm rule. I think it could create an interesting skirt effect.
twitter: @armchair_aero

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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also nice idea.
I feel we will see ALOT more come european season.

I think there is reenergising flow capability for areas normally experiencing separation and the possibility to create hot air skirts to separate the car flow more from the environment + the possibility to add massflow into the difusser.

As there is only limited energy available the question is where put that energy to the biggest positive impact?

marekk
marekk
2
Joined: 12 Feb 2011, 00:29

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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Raptor22 wrote:One of the reasons the exhaust design does not turn through 180degrees is possibly due to pipe losses in such a bend.
They'll want the exhaust gases to stay as long as possible under the floor to get most of thermal energy of it.
180 degree bend will be even more draggy and increases energy loses, They'll need just enough bend to direct exhaust/air flow to the rear.