The relative benefits of a pull rod suspension

[ringo]

Amazing solution from Ferrari. It's pretty flat and the dampers seem to be indented into the top of the gearbox.

[ringo]

The rocker axis is almost vertical. It follows that the torsion springs run almost vertical as well. The image can be zoomed in.
Would love to see everything installed.



don't tell me those little things are dampers!?

[PlatinumZealot]

On the pull rod suspension, it's a no brainer. There is an aerodynamic benefit AND a mechanical benefit when its "unlocked". Even the untuned torro rosso was fighting for Q3 with upgraded cars like the Saubers, Renaults, Mercedes and the Williams with two "rookie" drivers and basically an inexperienced team of engineers on a low budget. Imagine the possibilites with Mclaren.

Hate to toot my own horn but....

[Jersey Tom]

But what?

[ringo]

In my view, Ferrari has shown the courage to follow engineering logic in its F150. The 2011 season will test that logic, of course. Will they be slower than all the pull rod vehicles? Probably not.

So a few races in. We don't really know what's wrong with the F150, but seeing every big team car that was behind them last year is suddenly up front. With the only differences to last year being the suspension layout, will ferrari do a knee jerk and chose pull rod next year?

They are not winning or even podium-ing at the moment. Don't look like they will be in the next 3 races.

The suspension may not be the problem, but clearly it's hard to pinpoint anything else, other than the wings and midbody maybe. It's possible a pull rod suspension may at least make it easier for them to observe the other teams and make adjustments.
Now they are on their own in keeping up developement. Their copying abilities are very limited atm.

So their engineering logic is definitely being tested. Looking back to the beginning of the thread. It wasn't really a big a deal as it's made out to be, but at the same time i still don't know why ferrari went with the push rod.
They would have been just as fine with the pull rod, now that we see it's not a problem in setup adjustment, as the engineers use extended tools to do it, and we also see that reliability is not a problem either.
Neither is the exhaust being obstructed, as we now see that the shrouded exhaust is the fad of the first half.

So with hindsight, was it really necessary for them to do all this with the pushrod when the benefits are not even clear, and it could be observed rightly or wrongly that it may be a performance differentiator that is holding them back?

They need for front grip, but the rear is limiting their balance. suspension COG, or pushrod requiring long cooling hole on the engine cover, losing aero efficiency to blame?

[myurr]

The suspension may not be the problem, but clearly it's hard to pinpoint anything else,

Bull. Their car is simply too conservative being neither as refined as the Red Bull nor as innovative as the McLaren, and to cap that all off their wind tunnel data isn't matching the real world. That latter point is by far their biggest problem, not their choice of suspension layout.

[ringo]

Too conservative in what way?
I thought conservative was good?

You see now they are having to back track as predicted. If you want to win you have to implement every possible advantage and drop all conservatism. Have to go extreme in every area.

[DaveW]

You see now they are having to back track as predicted. If you want to win you have to implement every possible advantage and drop all conservatism. Have to go extreme in every area.

It is almost a sacrilege to mention it, given the ritual that appears to be unfolding at Grove, but the FW33 appears visually to tick all your boxes, ringo. I wonder what happened there?

[ringo]

It hasn't ticked all.
The body is good, but i think the front and rear wings have been to constant over the last 2 years.
A change in wings and then further refinement to the diffuser should bode well.
But don't get me wrong, it's possible to have a mediocre implementation, and it's also possible that a team has to adjust to setting up their package and understanding it.

The difference between Williams and Ferrari is that Williams is less restricted to upgrades. Ferrari's car is more intractable to change.

Their high gear box may not be working out too well for them. But that cannot be concluded from now anyway. I guess we need to see how the run up to mid season goes for both these teams.

[myurr]

Too conservative in what way?
I thought conservative was good?

You see now they are having to back track as predicted. If you want to win you have to implement every possible advantage and drop all conservatism. Have to go extreme in every area.

I've never said conservative was good, I just don't subscribe to your school of thought that the pull rod suspension is better for all cars in all circumstances with no questions asked.

Do you honestly believe that if only Ferrari had fitted a pull rod suspension setup that they would be winning races right now? Seriously, that isn't their deficiency.

[hardingfv32]

The Ferrari gearbox in the photo above:

1) The small shock looking devices: Do rotary shocks need gas pressure canister?

2) Is this a no side spring arrangement? If so, is the mechanism (with lever arms) for heave, sway or both?

3) Why the complex adjuster on the control rods going to the lever arms? They do not seem to be wired, so they are not strain gages.

Williams gearbox: Where is the rocker system or pull-rod attachment point?

Brian

[ringo]

I've never said conservative was good, I just don't subscribe to your school of thought that the pull rod suspension is better for all cars in all circumstances with no questions asked.

Do you honestly believe that if only Ferrari had fitted a pull rod suspension setup that they would be winning races right now? Seriously, that isn't their deficiency.

Yes if they had a pullrod they would have been better off. I dont know by how much, but they can't be worse with that option.
You have seen now that pullrod doesn't get in the way of the exhausts or setup time, and that packaging is not an issue, as a longer car is actually desirable now.

What is their deficiency and why is the car too conservative?

I think Ferrari has been complacent. They thought they would have picked up where they left off last year.

[ringo]

[marcush.]

what a great shot of the RedBull box! many thanks.

The lever arm is really BIG and has a very wide base-the upper svivelpoint as high as the inboard wishbone pickup...and ending right at the bottom of the box
and the damper sits out side the box...

You can also see the transversial svivel point of the arb at the same height as the diff centre

[PlatinumZealot]

Ferrari are changing the wheel hubs (uprights) to move the suspension connections higher for Turkey - this is to allow for space for the exhaust. If they had a pullrod from the beggining they wouldn't have to do this.