Flexible wings 2011

[Leon]

http://twitpic.com/4df5oz
http://twitpic.com/4dfbx3

Form Darren Heath's twitter, same place, same speed.

Lots of work to do, because IMHO this is key, not the blowing of the rearend.

This *IS* cheating. I don't want to sound like a cry baby (yet i might), but the rules are clear on this; doesn't matter how they manage to make the front wing come so close to the ground, the rule says NO FLEX, and passing from the FIA deflection test does not guarantee a legal car. The FIA must, must update their deflection tests for the front wing and add some other tests for the front end of the car. If you can not successfully enforce a rule, might as well scrap it altogether so everyone knows where to stand.

(move to RB-7 Renault thread if appropriate)

I think, that the bending is more related to the nosecone, which brings flexibility to the front wing.

[Shakeman]

http://twitpic.com/4df5oz
http://twitpic.com/4dfbx3

Form Darren Heath's twitter, same place, same speed.

Lots of work to do, because IMHO this is key, not the blowing of the rearend.

This *IS* cheating. I don't want to sound like a cry baby (yet i might), but the rules are clear on this; doesn't matter how they manage to make the front wing come so close to the ground, the rule says NO FLEX, and passing from the FIA deflection test does not guarantee a legal car. The FIA must, must update their deflection tests for the front wing and add some other tests for the front end of the car. If you can not successfully enforce a rule, might as well scrap it altogether so everyone knows where to stand.

(move to RB-7 Renault thread if appropriate)

I think, that the bending is more related to the nosecone, which brings flexibility to the front wing.

The rules are designed specifically to stop the front wing scraping the ground like the RB does. Whether this is due to nose cone flex or wing flex the FIA should jump on this. This is free laptime for the RBs and most likely the difference between the McLaren and RB on the time sheets. The RB turns into the corners on rails which is a direct benefit of the flexi front.

Put simply it is moveable aerodynamics and should be clamped down on. It's obvious to everyone with eyesight why not the race stewards?

The fact the McLaren is so competitive with a "legal" front end is testament to their design.

[Tim.Wright]

The problem is it is not possible to objectively prove if a wing flexing in a way which makes it illegal.

Simple as that

Tim

[Shakeman]

The problem is it is not possible to objectively prove if a wing flexing in a way which makes it illegal.

Simple as that

Tim

Only because the tests are ineffective and need to be rethought. The FIA should get a move one and engineer a representative test to uphold their own rules.

[murtoidf1]

ok first post (been lurking for a while )

maybe the FIA needs to grab the (red) bull by the horn(er)s and say it will inpound any car it suspects of breaking the rule immediateely after post race scutineering and then put it in a full size windtunnel to measure clearences etc at the highest speed it achieved in the race in question, if the clearences are not acceptable then it is illegal, if they cannot reproduce the alleged offence then the car is legal, simple as that.

obviously a logistical nightmare to get the car tested as soon as possible so as to still allow the team time to work on it but at the same time if the teams don't want to be inconvienienced in this way all they have to do is not appear to have a front wing that is breaking the law.

The thing is, F1 is about sidestepping finding loop holes etc - thats what breed innovation. And in a way this flexi wing stuff is vintage F1.

But I agree they have to find some way of removing it, the f Duct was clever and got banned after a season, this should be the same. It's unsafe in some parts.

[Shakeman]

Another forum has a picture of Webber taking a very close interest in Sebs front end. It almost looks like Webber was making it obvious his front is different to mine.

If it's not good form to post a link to another forum please delete this link:
http://forum.planet-f1.com/index.php?t= ... 80&start=0&

[Tim.Wright]

maybe the FIA needs to grab the (red) bull by the horn(er)s and say it will inpound any car it suspects of breaking the rule immediateely after post race scutineering and then put it in a full size windtunnel to measure clearences etc at the highest speed it achieved in the race in question, if the clearences are not acceptable then it is illegal, if they cannot reproduce the alleged offence then the car is legal, simple as that

Only because the tests are ineffective and need to be rethought. The FIA should get a move one and engineer a representative test to uphold their own rules.

Its actually a far from sraightforward problem to resolve (the measuring I mean). Measuring on the track is practically impossible, and measuring in scrutineering (off the track) is always going to be a simplification of the loadcase seen on the track.

Putting the cars in a wind tunnel will also not be fair. The behaviour of the wing in the wind tunnel is necessarily different than that on the track. Therefore, a car which is illegal in the wind tunnel, is not necessarily illegal on the track, so it cant be used as grounds to deem a car illegal.

Not to mention the cost and logistical nightmare it would impose.

Tim

[Shakeman]

maybe the FIA needs to grab the (red) bull by the horn(er)s and say it will inpound any car it suspects of breaking the rule immediateely after post race scutineering and then put it in a full size windtunnel to measure clearences etc at the highest speed it achieved in the race in question, if the clearences are not acceptable then it is illegal, if they cannot reproduce the alleged offence then the car is legal, simple as that

Only because the tests are ineffective and need to be rethought. The FIA should get a move one and engineer a representative test to uphold their own rules.

Its actually a far from sraightforward problem to resolve (the measuring I mean). Measuring on the track is practically impossible, and measuring in scrutineering (off the track) is always going to be a simplification of the loadcase seen on the track.

Putting the cars in a wind tunnel will also not be fair. The behaviour of the wing in the wind tunnel is necessarily different than that on the track. Therefore, a car which is illegal in the wind tunnel, is not necessarily illegal on the track, so it cant be used as grounds to deem a car illegal.

Not to mention the cost and logistical nightmare it would impose.

Tim

The only logical conclusion would be to scrap any rule relating to front wing flex as it cannot be adequately policed.

[feynman]

...Measuring on the track is practically impossible...

Unless the FIA stipulates that wings have laser range-finder sensors fitted flush to bottom surface, one in middle, one at each end plate. Their position and calibration checked by scrutineers no longer employed ineffectually lifting heavy weights onto wings and splitters.
They are cheap and tiny, their output a continuous measure of wing height above the track surface fed via SECU and transmitted with the rest of the telemetry stream.

Specify any allowed flex/dip, tolerances, monitor rolling average to mitigate going over kerbs. Whole solution probably works out cheaper than the airfreight costs for increasingly complex and apparently pointless rigs and jigs.

[peroa]

Flexi explanation:
http://spontoncristiano.wordpress.com/2 ... ione-2011/

[Mchamilton]

Flexi explanation:
http://spontoncristiano.wordpress.com/2 ... ione-2011/

doesnt explain how the wing works, the angle of the nosecone could be down to fuel load or if the DRS is open, both of which are going to have an effect on the cars rake. also in the comparison of the 2 'outlines' the actual wing endplate is showing a lot more rake that the nose cone which suggests the flex is within the wings main element.
from looking at all the pictures and video it looks as though there is a lateral flex in the wing pillars, and a vertical flex in the main plane with a centre of pressure at the front (somehow? lol) which creates the increased rake

[JB2011]

Flexi explanation:
http://spontoncristiano.wordpress.com/2 ... ione-2011/

There's no proof either of those is either fast or slow just from the lettering on the tyres. The first one could have been taken with a very fast shutter speed and produced that image even if it was going at 150+mph.

[tok-tokkie]

Flexi explanation:
http://spontoncristiano.wordpress.com/2 ... ione-2011/

I can't read it but I will tell you this: That comes from this very site:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9629&start=45

[Just_a_fan]

And appears not to be suitably referenced either...

[i70q7m7ghw]

maybe the FIA needs to grab the (red) bull by the horn(er)s and say it will inpound any car it suspects of breaking the rule immediateely after post race scutineering and then put it in a full size windtunnel to measure clearences etc at the highest speed it achieved in the race in question, if the clearences are not acceptable then it is illegal, if they cannot reproduce the alleged offence then the car is legal, simple as that

Only because the tests are ineffective and need to be rethought. The FIA should get a move one and engineer a representative test to uphold their own rules.

Its actually a far from sraightforward problem to resolve (the measuring I mean). Measuring on the track is practically impossible, and measuring in scrutineering (off the track) is always going to be a simplification of the loadcase seen on the track.

Putting the cars in a wind tunnel will also not be fair. The behaviour of the wing in the wind tunnel is necessarily different than that on the track. Therefore, a car which is illegal in the wind tunnel, is not necessarily illegal on the track, so it cant be used as grounds to deem a car illegal.

Not to mention the cost and logistical nightmare it would impose.

Tim

It's relatively straight forward to solve actually, only for next season. Standardised front wing components, much like the central section, only the entire first element. The FIA then control how rigid it's going to be.