Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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scarbs
scarbs
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Joined: 08 Oct 2003, 09:47
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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Now if you treat me with that level of critcism, you should do the same for the others and their crazy ideas.

Remember you guys went from this
http://scarbsf1.files.wordpress.com/201 ... _fee-2.jpg
and this:
http://scarbsf1.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/r31_fee.jpg
to this
http://scarbsf1.files.wordpress.com/201 ... ee_ebd.jpg

that is a huge departure.
A huge departure? how so?

If you check the date of those first two pictures and the context in which they were drawn. I posted the first two pics, within an hour of the cars first run. In fact I hadnt seen the actual exhaust, there were no photos at that point, I seen the car return to the pits and caught sight of the fans blowing behind the bargeboard.
Without knowing the exact position and orientation of the exhaust outlet. I worked out how and why the exhaust flow went under the floor and drew the add ons to the two pictures. In the cars media chronology that was the first proof and analysis of the FEE. At the time most people said the FEE couldn't exist, or its was a blown splitter or blew over the top of the floor.

I my eyes my analysis is subsequently proven to be pretty accurate, backed up by two senior Renault staff.

I've since refined the drawings and the flow based on what we've seen of the actual outlets. I still maintain the flow goes under the floor, where is the departure? I'd say my analysis holds true, judged by the images of the stripped car in the melbourne pit.

segedunum
segedunum
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007, 13:49

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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manchild wrote:PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:07 am
manchild wrote:Perhaps they use exhaust(s) positioned at the front as virtual skirts?
Well, that's the only thing I can imagine that they are doing. I am just not buying this exhaust gas directly under the floor thing and never have done, nor has anyone made it clear what it's actually achieving as a net effect. Arguing that this is simply what is happening or telling us that some senior Renault people have confirmed it (which I can't imagine they'd do) doesn't tell us that.

Jean Claude Migeot who kicked off using exhausts in manners such as this in the early 80s, at Renault ironically, stated that the initial goal they had was to recreate the lost ground effect skirts via exhaust gas. The result was a disaster so they turned their attention blowing the exhaust gas at the back of the car in other ways.

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ringo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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Scarbs I can understand the reasoning in the time frame and context when the first shots came out. But the same can't be said of the others in the thread. I am very aware that your blog adjusts to the knowledge you obtain to give the best insider info as possible, and it's best not to take anything as gospel as it comes out..

I was targeting the other posters who were clutching to the first images, which were only partially credible for the idea at the time. They didn't see the distinction.
So if it is that they were clutching to the first set of drawings, even though those couldn't directly translate to the exhaust as we now know it, up to the point the new ones came out, then it can be looked as a huge departure from their point of view. I don't know your thinking so i only assumed you held onto the the first idea until the new pictures came up.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not criticizing your work, though anyone is entitled to; it's a hell of a job to keep up with F1, but your fans take things out beyond context most times.

My only argument here, for a while now, is that the exhaust flow cannot be predicted, since it changes with speed, angle, and relative position to the edge of the floor.
Also that it goes to the edges of the floor, underneath and over depending on floor design.
The only issue was with the interpretation of the flow going straight back to the diffuser, and also the idea that the flow stays completely underneath in a straight line.

we have seen a few changes in the R31 exhaust so we can see that the team must be trying their best to control it. The temperature stickers on the side of the car earlier in winter testing were an indication that gases were curling over the floor.

I also saw in australia Q1 the flames shooting diagonally upward. I wouldn't mind seeing those images becuase they would add to the discussion.
For Sure!!

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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Pardon me for waiting for a better source to confirm it.
Jeeez
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Francesc
Francesc
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Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 21:44

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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I have a question: What about having the forward exit exhaust blowing to inside of the car instead of the outside? Wouldn't it be a more efficient way? Of course drivers ass would get too hot, may be with fitting some heat shielding like the ceramyc floor that McLaren had at Melboourne would cope with it. The plank would burn too I believe. What do you think?

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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You mean, like this one?

Image
Ciro

andrew
andrew
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Joined: 16 Feb 2010, 15:08
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland - WhiteBlue Country (not the region)

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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^ They didn't think that one through at all did they? :lol:

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godlameroso
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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Could the air meant to cool the radiators and what not be also used to create downforce? We saw with the sauber car how body work blew out from inside, clearly the air pressure inside the chassis is greater than out, what role would this play, and how would directing that airflow contribute to the overall downforce of the car?
Saishū kōnā

bot6
bot6
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Joined: 02 Mar 2011, 19:30

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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Red Bull started that last year with that big opening at the back of the engine cover. The hot air from the radiators is directed there, and it blows on the beam wing.

Now all the teams do it.

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ringo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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Got a bombshell to drop.

The exhuast does not need to blow under the floor. In fact i don't think it was designed to.
It's gonna take a while to flesh out the reasons but bear with me.

1. The diffuser blowing is much weaker than either redbull, mclaren or ferrari design. So it would not be of a real benefit to blow 3 miles away losing loads of energy to the ambient and crashish into the tyres, before the gases reaches the diffuser edge.

2. Blowing else where accomplishes more things that simply wafting gas to the diffuser. more on these other things later.

3. Renault creates down force else where which has a propagating effect that more effectively improves the diffuser.

So I'll put up some explanations later, and it's going to make a whole lot of sense.
For Sure!!

marekk
marekk
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Joined: 12 Feb 2011, 00:29

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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andrew wrote:^ They didn't think that one through at all did they? :lol:
Of course they did. Otherwise guy will be on the left side, and girl on the right :)

andrew
andrew
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Joined: 16 Feb 2010, 15:08
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland - WhiteBlue Country (not the region)

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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Well in this modern age of medical wonders, anything is possible..... :?

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ringo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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Well there might be a muffler hole and no muffler on the left. :)

a few adjustments to the model:

Image

this is as close as it's gonna get for me. The pipe is 3.5 inch by 3 inch ellipse.

As can be seen with this floor is that the gases stay under. The pipe is above the step plane, so it's legal and the floor is shaped to as to keep everything down.


now the explanations; i'm not very good at doing these in an orderly fashion.
1. The diffuser blowing is much weaker than either redbull, mclaren or ferrari design. So it would not be of a real benefit to blow 3 miles away losing loads of energy to the ambient and crashish into the tyres, before the gases reaches the diffuser edge.
For this new floor i have here. The gases do not stay under the floor at all. They don't curl over it either.

That wasn't the case before on the model due to the floor shape and the splitter shape, but if Renault team spent time tuning and testing, then it even harder for anyone else to mimic.
After now having the proper features it can be safe to say the bulge in the floor makes it even more difficult for the gases to go back under or even curl over the top like we observed in the first model.

Concerning the exhaust energy. It loses much temperature by the time it reaches the diffuser and most of this energy is absorbed away from the floor, so does little to benefit the diffuser directly.
It's basic understanding that the redbull design will have much more energy going between the wheels and diffuser.

So if the R31 exhaust isn't as effective at blowing the diffuser, why go through the trouble of implementing it?
2. Blowing else where accomplishes more things that simply wafting gas to the diffuser. more on these other things later.
This^...
we need to forget about the diffuser for a moment, there are more places on the car just as important.
The r31 pipes are targeted at 3 performance parameters, the floor size, the splitter suction and the 4 tyres.
The former parameters targeting downforce and the later drag; the tyres being one of the main sources of drag on an F1 car.

If we look on a wake pattern from a car without the FEE it will look like this:
Image
Notice what the wheels are doing?
The wheels create a lot of drag becuase of the huge wake they leave behind. Not only do the create drag but they negatively impacts the floor with the turbulent and poor flowing air comin off them. Especially the front of the rear wheel.

Now enter the FEE car.

Image
FEE above, non FEE below.
See that blue area circled by the black ring on the non FEE? The FEE is now blowing that area and it's green (faster). So it's keeping the velocity high near the edge of the floor and preventing circulation that usually takes place there on most flat bottom cars.
Higher speeds and energy in the wake, less drag.
The wake of the car is also narrowed, look on the black line beside the front tyre, and also look at the redder colours in front the rear wheel.
All of this reduces drag and is thanks a type of wake control by the exhaust. Should help the R31 on the straights.

Now for the downforce part. The pink line is indicating where there is high velocity under the floor; the yellow and green boundary.
Notice how wider the yellow area is with the FEE above. It goes beyond the floor!
The floor is seeing a much higher flow rate and it's effectively a good 150 mm wider.
Compare the red areas under the splitter and front of the floor as well. The FEE is siphoning and pulling more suction at the front so the down-force gain is nearer the centre of the car.

In summary these gains cannot be achieved if the gases stay under the floor. The r31 cannot have an effectively bigger floor if the gases don't venture out and act as a skirt.
3. Renault creates down force else where which has a propagating effect that more effectively improves the diffuser.
Focusing on the diffuser alone wouldn't be wise, since other teams have much stronger and focused flows going there.

Image

The FEE simply creates downforce else where. It does it in totalitity by creating more suction at the front of the car in the splitter are and more suction at the floor.
All these in turn will benefit the diffuser downstream as well, so the diffuser isn't being ignored, it's just not the only thing to be considered.

The pressure plot above speaks for itself. Notice the dark blue areas and how much bigger they are on the FEE car.
All of that is downforce smack dab in the middle of the car, which help in a very good balance.

This is mainly possible by blowing outwardly and creating a skirt effectively increasing floor size.
For Sure!!

tok-tokkie
tok-tokkie
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Joined: 08 Jun 2009, 16:21
Location: Cape Town

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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That the exhaust is deflecting stuff out away from the rear tyres looks very plausible by those CFDs.

Why is the wake behind the front tyres in the last 2 CFDs so much darker blue than all the earlier CRDs?

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hollus
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 01:21
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Exhaust Blown Floor - Forward Exhaust Exit

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Ringo, nice that you keep on trying with CFD. At least crude relative effects are visible, even if as you say the details make a lot of difference.
But models being models, they are much more useful if you give some info on the conditions used! What car speed did you use in the above? Does your model account for any sort of gas cooling (and heating!) other than by mixing?
Do you dare making one CFD with yaw?
Rivals, not enemies.