Post rigs

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DaveW
DaveW
239
Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: Post rigs

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Keep at it ghost, you'll get there. Actually, energy calcs are a good check on the accuracy of both a model & the integration routine used to generate model responses.

ghost406
ghost406
0
Joined: 08 Nov 2010, 18:39

Re: Post rigs

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Hi,
Is it possible to get installation stiffness with a 7 post rig?
See you

DaveW
DaveW
239
Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: Post rigs

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ghost406 wrote:Is it possible to get installation stiffness with a 7 post rig?
Forgive me ghost, but your question is ambiguous. If you mean can a 7 post rig introduce an installation stiffness, then my answer would be (hopefully) not. If, on the other hand, you want to know if it is possible to estimate a value for installation stiffness using a multi-post rig, then the answer is a qualified yes. In more detail, if you are in a position to estimate equivalent spring rates and damping coefficients from rig test data, then it is possible to extent that estimation to include equivalent installation stiffnesses.

Installation stiffness can be defined as the vertical suspension force (applied symmetrically & measured in wheel co-ordinates) required to achieve a unit deflection of the wheel relative to the chassis when no fluid passes across the damper pistons. Apologies about the definition, but damper compliance, caused by structural flexibility & fluid compressibility, often contributes significantly to overall installation stiffness.

Overall installation stiffness is usually represented for modelling purposes as a spring placed in series with a "pure" damper, although some components can also affect effective spring stiffness.

Low values of installation stiffness are to be avoided in race vehicles if good mechanical control is important (the statement "mechanical set-up is not important" often indicates an inadequate installation stiffness). Causes of low values can be large motion ratios (wheel/damper), dampers with a insufficient CSA, push/pull rods with shallow angles, rocker posts in single shear, compliant rocker post mounts & uprights, & (especially) layouts that induce bending moments in wishbones.

bill shoe
bill shoe
151
Joined: 19 Nov 2008, 08:18
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: Post rigs

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I have a shaker rig idea, and since it involves primary ride (not normally a main focus of racing rig testing?) I’m hoping someone will feel comfortable giving perspective. I’m studying primary ride at an automotive OE. I’ve read Rowell, Guest, Olley, and Janeway.

My company has a traditional hydraulic ram shaker rig, but it’s on another continent. If we test a car locally on public roads and the primary ride is particularly good/bad/interesting then we want objective info for the same car. The home office may not have the same car spec for testing, especially if it’s a competitor car.

My idea is to make a cheap and simple 4-post shaker rig for primary ride testing. It would have a mechanical mechanism driven by a single motor (electric or gas!!). The rig and drive mechanism would need a natural frequency higher than 4 Hz because I probably want to test from ~0.5 to 4.0 Hz. It would bolt onto a stout 6 x 3 meter setup pad that sits on its own stout foundation (already exists). We already have plenty of appropriate instrumentation. The mechanical mechanism would need to allow the front-rear phasing to be changed between bounce and pitch in a few minutes.

It’s my understanding that most sinusoidal shaker rig testing occurs with constant max-velocity inputs. In this manner the amplitude decreases as the input sweeps up the frequency range. This makes sense because it always puts the same peak velocity into the shock. The cheap and simple mechanical shaker mechanism I envision would have constant amplitude, or at least amplitude that could only be changed in discreet increments (with yet more mechanical alterations). So constant max-velocity is not possible.

I read that some shaker rig engineer does frequency sweep testing at two peak velocities: 4 inch/s and 10 inch/s (0.1 m/s and 0.25 m/s). Does the knee point on a typical production car shock often occur between those velocities, and is this knee-point consideration where the multiple velocities come from?

If the constant amplitude on my rig causes the shock to start going past its knee point in the middle of the frequency sweep then will this make much difference for primary ride data?

Also, what am I missing, what do I not understand well enough to even ask?

Thanks for any perspective.

DaveW
DaveW
239
Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: Post rigs

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Interesting idea, Bill. I don't have too many issues with your assumptions, apart from the fact that a rig defines an input to the tyres, not the dampers, but that is just nitpicking.

One thought keeps recurring, however. Whilst I think you could quantify sprung mass control parameters, & therefore rank suspension set-ups with your proposed test rig, I suspect you would not be able to identify why some set-ups are better than others unless you were able to explore a broader range of frequencies. I think that is important because, in my experience, development drivers are a pretty competent crowd, despite their strange language, & there is nearly always a good reason for a sub-optimal suspension set-up.

I am told that an MOT in Europe includes a suspension test. I don't know how that is carried out, but it is possible, I suppose, that they use a rig rather similar to the one you have proposed. Perhaps somebody with more knowledge than I possess would care to comment?

User avatar
747heavy
24
Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: Post rigs

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just some random comments to this type of suspension/damper testers.
not sure where and if in continental europe this test is mandatory, but the testers I have seen are more or less based around this concept.

http://www.performanceworks1.com/PDF%20 ... ESTING.pdf
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5369974.pdf
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5259246.pdf

AFAIK these testers only test one axle at a time.
They are using a fixed test amplitude and vary the speed/rpm/frequency input.

The tester I have seen (MaHa) uses 9 mm input amplitude and tests up to 16Hz.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

bill shoe
bill shoe
151
Joined: 19 Nov 2008, 08:18
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: Post rigs

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Great feedback from both of you so far. I will not have time to look into this for a few days. I'll try to respond back more then.

DaveW
DaveW
239
Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: Post rigs

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Thanks 747. I should have referred to an "Annual Vehicle Test", rather than the parochial "MOT". I believe suspension tests are carried out in Germany & France (at least), but not in the UK (last time I looked). I was pleased (in a way) to see that neither of the two patents cited required wheels to be rotated, which (however desirable in principle) could introduce extraneous forces.

bill shoe
bill shoe
151
Joined: 19 Nov 2008, 08:18
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: Post rigs

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I didn't know there were small shaker rigs like that for shock/suspension diagnostic testing. This is good to know.

The Hunter model appears to be out of production.
Here is a Muller model (European) that is currently available:
http://www.actia.co.uk/muller/pdfs/Broc ... ochure.pdf

These testers use fixed amplitude and known frequency ranges, so it's simple to determine peak velocity vs frequency. These testers are generally not interested in primary frequencies. The Muller only goes down to 3 Hz, and the amplitude at the lower freqs may be smaller than ideal. The Hunter goes down to lower freqs, but again the fixed amplitude may not be optimized for true primary ride motion at these low freqs.

The technical paper on the Hunter unit also helped me realize that the phase angle between input and response roughly corresponds to overall system damping. I knew this in theory, but it was a good reminder of how much info can be had from a simple test if you think about what to look for.

DaveW commented about missing the perspective on overall suspension setup compromises if I only consider the primary frequencies. I agree that development people are generally good at balancing all these compromises, and the tradeoffs are rarely understood later on by pure test/eval people.

I would try to avoid this dilemma by using the primary shaker rig as a pure research device as opposed to doing low-frequency development on cars where I didn't understand the other tradeoffs. I don't think we have a good understanding of why different cars have good or bad primary ride. I'd try to improve this knowledge so development people can use it in the future. Our current primary ride stiffnesses are set by identifying competitor vehicles with good primary ride and copying their static deflections. This is a reasonable pragmatic approach, but there is room for improvement.

A primary shaker rig would need to be 4-post so I could get into some of the "action" issues that Olley identified. In particular I would be interesting in finding the pitch center location for pitch and bounce modes (bounce does have a bit of pitch that is apparently important to how it feels). The pitch center will probably have a clear location at the resonant frequency of each mode, but I'm also interested in the pitch center location vs the entire primary frequency range.

Overall, I'm trying to decide if the primary shaker rig would be worth the time or if I'm simply enamored with the idea of making a shaker rig. It may come down to what is my most useful alternative activity. More feedback always appreciated.

bill shoe
bill shoe
151
Joined: 19 Nov 2008, 08:18
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: Post rigs

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Does anyone know of a shaker rig in Southern California? There are several OE technical departments here, but as far as I know they don't have shaker rigs.

SoCal is ground zero for the aftermarket tuner crowd, so you can't throw a rock without hitting someone's powertrain dyno, but I've never heard of a shaker rig here.

DaveW
DaveW
239
Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: Post rigs

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bill shoe wrote:Does anyone know of a shaker rig in Southern California?
My information is probably way out of date, but Dan Gurney's race team used to have an MTS rig, I believe.

DaveW
DaveW
239
Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: Post rigs

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Using a rig to understand road vehicle suspensions is fascinating (& sad, I suppose). A few random thoughts, for what they are worth.

The ears are compelling transducers when road vehicle ride qualities are being assessed subjectively. So much so that many development drivers resort to ear defenders to avoid being misled by a poorly assembled prototype.

A power train suspended on undamped mounts can (& usually will) cause subjective "shake", which becomes increasingly intrusive as suspension damping is increased. US OEM's appear to have difficulty accepting this fact &, as a consequence, still produce vehicles that use undamped mounts & are less well controlled than they might have been.

Performance tyres from some manufacturers appear to be less able to "wrap themselves around" obstacles than others. As a result, tyres that appear to be very similar on a four post rig can possess very different subjective ride qualities on the road. JT, or ubrben, will know the correct technical term for the property.

A digressive damping style will normally stabilise chassis motion, particularly in roll. The problem is that a digressive style will have a major impact on overall ride quality unless the low speed damping is reduced at high(er) frequencies. I have found that almost all digressive dampers installed in road vehicles "lose" their low speed damping (& their ability to maintain a non-zero average pressure across the piston) at frequencies above approximately 10 Hz. This happens with perfectly normal dampers & is, I am reasonably sure, controlled by shim stack build. Damper designers, as a rule, claim that the characteristic doesn't exist, but it does explain why development drivers will sometimes make over 100 damper changes during a vehicle development program without, apparently, making significant changes to overall damping levels.

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: Post rigs

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DaveW wrote:Performance tyres from some manufacturers appear to be less able to "wrap themselves around" obstacles than others. As a result, tyres that appear to be very similar on a four post rig can possess very different subjective ride qualities on the road. JT, or ubrben, will know the correct technical term for the property.
Enveloping stiffness may be what you're looking for.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

bill shoe
bill shoe
151
Joined: 19 Nov 2008, 08:18
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: Post rigs

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DaveW wrote:
My information is probably way out of date, but Dan Gurney's race team used to have an MTS rig, I believe.
Good memory. I checked with a former Gurney/AAR engineer and it turns out that Toyota bought them an MTS 6-post back in the day. When Toyota money dried up the rig was sold off, buyer unknown but probably not local. This was when NASCAR facilities were expanding so the rig is probably living in Mooresville now.

DaveW
DaveW
239
Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: Post rigs

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I wasn't aware of the Toyota connection, but I did spend what seemed like several hours on the telephone after midnight my time in conversation with AAR engineers trying to help them specify the rig. I concluded that it was probably MTS' first attempt at a rig that was not for "squeak & rattle" use.

Incidentally, a squeak & rattle rig can be used for suspension set-up/assessment, & I would guess that every proving ground has one (at least) of those. All that is required are a set of good transducers (including wheel pan load cells), some conditioning & acquisition hardware & some careful calibration. Oh, & somebody who is familiar with RPC to generate drive files.