MP4-26 diffuser material

[alfie-m3739]

Well Brundle said it was made from titanium as it was a built as a rapid prototype.

What would be the lead time on a complex CF diffuser coated in Zircotec?

This is a link to the exact point of the grid walk (on youtube).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoutLrwh ... age#t=438s

He says (again only what he has said) that it's coated in titanium as they didn't have time to make the heat proof carbon fibre membrane.

Or scroll forward to 7 minutes, 10 seconds on the vid below.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoutLrwh ... age#t=438s[/youtube]



Alfie

[Formula None]

One of Fil's pics:



Are those rivets on the diffuser lip? Was it confirmed as a sheet metal part or not?

MP4-26 & RB7 aligned at the back wheel:

[horse]

Sorry to bang on about the diffuser Gurney some more, but I just had a bit of a realisation about the particular shape of the McLaren diffuser.

By having that vertical section of Gurney you will help bend the flow out to the sides of the car rather than just up, which is what we see with, say, the Mercedes diffuser. Those louvres are also turning flow outward.

Think the flat section wider of those might be because of the exhaust position, although RBR has no such flat section.

[hollowBallistix]

One of Fil's pics:

Are those rivets on the diffuser lip? Was it confirmed as a sheet metal part or not?

It was manufactured out of Titanium like I said a few post back, probably using Superplastic Forming & Diffusion Bonding techniques

[hollowBallistix]

Hello everyone! You've got a really nice forum here, a bunch of very knowledgeable people. I don't think I can contribute much because I'm just a fan without any technical knowledge, but I'll enjoy reading you from time to time.

The only reason I've registered is that I was reading this thread and saw you're discussing about the grey diffuser the McLaren's had in Australia. Pedro De la Rosa explained during the tv coverage of the race -he is a comentator for Spanish tv channel La Sexta, together with Ferrari's Mark Gené and a couple of sports commentators, that it was a carbon fiber diffuser painted with a kind of paint that offers thermical protection. The reason for this was they only managed to build one for each car in time for the weekend so they couldn't risk any kind of damage. I hope this helps.

Well this was clearly wrong, it was Titanium coated with Zircon, no carbon fibre present in that rear diffuser/floor

[murtoidf1]

Hello everyone! You've got a really nice forum here, a bunch of very knowledgeable people. I don't think I can contribute much because I'm just a fan without any technical knowledge, but I'll enjoy reading you from time to time.

The only reason I've registered is that I was reading this thread and saw you're discussing about the grey diffuser the McLaren's had in Australia. Pedro De la Rosa explained during the tv coverage of the race -he is a comentator for Spanish tv channel La Sexta, together with Ferrari's Mark Gené and a couple of sports commentators, that it was a carbon fiber diffuser painted with a kind of paint that offers thermical protection. The reason for this was they only managed to build one for each car in time for the weekend so they couldn't risk any kind of damage. I hope this helps.

Well this was clearly wrong, it was Titanium coated with Zircon, no carbon fibre present in that rear diffuser/floor

yup. you;re totally right. de la rosa ( if he said that was wrong). Even whitmarshhas confirmed its all titanium. The lead times of a CF part meant it was the only option

[Formula None]

It certainly looks like sheet metal. Why exactly does superplastic forming have quicker turn around than laying up a composite part? You need to invest in molds/dies with both processes.

[ringo]

Could be laser sintered titanium; DMLS direct metal laser sintering to be precise.
Laser sintering allows metal parts to be rapid prototyped.
The raw material is powdered titanium alloy.

The diffuser doesn't look like it's made from sheet. Though it would be quicker that way, it wont be very accurate to the concept design.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW-2xaID ... 94E5201D5B

[Formula None]

Could be laser sintered titanium; DMLS direct metal laser sintering to be precise.
Laser sintering allows metal parts to be rapid prototyped.
The raw material is powdered titanium alloy.

The diffuser doesn't look like it's made from sheet. Though it would be quicker that way, it wont be very accurate to the concept design.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW-2xaID ... 94E5201D5B

Reposting my response from the RB7 thread:

I guess that's possible. But given the size & geometry of a diffuser it seems like a sheet forming process would be more realistic. Where's the source confirming SLS was used vs. thermoplastic forming?

Most SLS parts I've seen are smaller (limited by the sintering machine's bed size) and the diffuser is quite large. So sectioning the part and joining them together seems like a complicated affair. So, being a thin wall, large metal part implies some sheet forming process was used. The presence of bent flanges and rivets (on the gurney in the pic) also seem to suggest this. I would also question the strength & rigidity of thin sintered metal vs. sheet.

[Formula None]

Diffuser size being 1000mm x 350mm (XY), for reference.

[ringo]

Could be laser sintered titanium; DMLS direct metal laser sintering to be precise.
Laser sintering allows metal parts to be rapid prototyped.
The raw material is powdered titanium alloy.

The diffuser doesn't look like it's made from sheet. Though it would be quicker that way, it wont be very accurate to the concept design.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW-2xaID ... 94E5201D5B

Reposting my response from the RB7 thread:

I guess that's possible. But given the size & geometry of a diffuser it seems like a sheet forming process would be more realistic. Where's the source confirming SLS was used vs. thermoplastic forming?

Most SLS parts I've seen are smaller (limited by the sintering machine's bed size) and the diffuser is quite large. So sectioning the part and joining them together seems like a complicated affair. So, being a thin wall, large metal part implies some sheet forming process was used. The presence of bent flanges and rivets (on the gurney in the pic) also seem to suggest this. I would also question the strength & rigidity of thin sintered metal vs. sheet.

It's not any weaker.

The size of the difusser is the only drawback, but we don't know what size DMLS machines are out there. A diffuse done in 4 parts then welded togeth may be possible who knows?

The part just doesn't look hand made from sheet. Pressing is out as well since dies would have to be manufactured.

Casting is very possible though.

[Formula None]

It's not any weaker.

I'd like to see your source for that. I really doubt sintering or casting would not produce a thin part with properties comparable to sheet metal.

Superplastic forming isn't "hand forming", we're not talking presses and brakes here, it's basically thermoforming with sheet metal. Agree though, dies take time to make which was my initial reservation about how it was claimed have shorter lead times. Sometimes the advantage, depending on process and part design, is that only 1/2 the die needs to be made (compared to stamping or laying up CF), one female cavity. High pressure gas on one side of the mold forces the heated sheet into the mold. So maybe some time was saved in mold simplicity. Other times you have a full mold and its more similar to stamping with dies, sometimes you even have two sandwiched sheets that are blown into with compressed gas (similar to hydroforming or plastic blow molding).









This is all so well developed in mass production that it probably should be no surprise that a die could be turned around in a few days. Compound curves no problem.

[PlatinumZealot]

Superplastic forming isn't "hand forming", we're not talking presses and brakes here, it's basically thermoforming with sheet metal. Agree though, dies take time to make which was my initial reservation about how it was claimed have shorter lead times. Sometimes the advantage, depending on process and part design, is that only 1/2 the die needs to be made (compared to stamping or laying up CF), one female cavity....[/img]

I don't know, making a die is big deal, especially metal forming. Very expensive and time consuming too. why would you go through all of that when you can just rapid prototype it out in two days?

The dull surface of the titanium diffuser is also not typical of a formed part. the corners don't even shine. Also, the fins would make it hard to explain sheet forming. Unless they bolted, welded or glued the fins on. Just too much to do when you can just print it out.

[ringo]

It's not any weaker.

I'd like to see your source for that. I really doubt sintering or casting would not produce a thin part with properties comparable to sheet metal.

Superplastic forming isn't "hand forming", we're not talking presses and brakes here, it's basically thermoforming with sheet metal. Agree though, dies take time to make which was my initial reservation about how it was claimed have shorter lead times. Sometimes the advantage, depending on process and part design, is that only 1/2 the die needs to be made (compared to stamping or laying up CF), one female cavity. High pressure gas on one side of the mold forces the heated sheet into the mold. So maybe some time was saved in mold simplicity. Other times you have a full mold and its more similar to stamping with dies, sometimes you even have two sandwiched sheets that are blown into with compressed gas (similar to hydroforming or plastic blow molding).

The sintered titanium is not any weaker thanks to the grain structure.
It deposits the metal at 100% density. The grain structure of a sheet or casting is not at this level of perfection.
http://www.techbriefs.com/component/con ... ticle/2787
sintered in blue:

Any how you look at it, even if it was weaker, a diffuser doesn't need a whole lot of strength anyway, it just needs to be tough.

That die and press you have there, i am not sure if Mclaren have 1 such as that, and since they are making 1 part instead of thousands, it's not likely they would have that infrastructure in to make 1 diffuser.


Another possibility and quick process is investment casting. Mclaren can rapid prototype a mold, fill it with wax, ceramic coat the wax, and send it out to be poured at some steel mill if they don't have an induction furnace.

[l4mbch0ps]

The finish on that diffuser is supposedly a heat protection coating anyways, so analysis of the material based on it's surface appearance might be misleading.