Mercedes GP W02

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

They should just screw it all and copy redBull. You know my saying already... You Can't beat 'em, copy 'em.

And you know my saying "Copy 'em and you won't beat 'em."

I havent seen or heard of any flaws from the W02. Last year we had Ross and co banging on about weight distribution etc.
If you factor in the issues Mercedes and Ferrari where having, and discount planet Red Bull, all the teams are looking similar on pace.

And it probably inst a surprise to see that Mercedes and Ferrari struggled as they had shorter wheelbases then their opponents. Perhaps at Albert park this counts for something? Perhaps im clutching at Straws.

Copy Red Bull? Nope, just give that Benz or Ferrari a flexing nose wing...and see how much quicker it goes..especially round the faster sweeeping sections of a race track.....

[xpensive]

The point is that this team is still a BAR-derivate, beginning with Malcolm Oastler and a riff-raff of CART-designers.

Didn't work then and not now, attention to detail is everything, but what I wonder is what RB was really doing at Ferrari?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

The point is that this team is still a BAR-derivate, beginning with Malcolm Oastler and a riff-raff of CART-designers.

Didn't work then and not now, attention to detail is everything, but what I wonder is what RB was really doing at Ferrari?

Wait X Bob Bell has pedigree. Maybe thats what is needed, someone on the outside coming in..rather than Brawn looking at what he has.
Remember, 2009/10 this team was pretty much a rag tag group of engineers. we are seeing a metamorphosis, much the same as Red Bull. Mercedes could finish 7th this year and still be ahead of what Red Bull achieved in that time.

Perspective is required here. The W02 is not the RB7 nor would anyone of us had expected the car to beat it. The W03 or 04 however will be a different story once the Benz supercomputers are fully operational. Until then I will hold off criticising the W02. I will wait and see what it can do at tracks suited to its potential.

[xpensive]

You are correct JET, Bob Bell is probably the first senior engineer with a decent CV hired since who knows when.

But going back a bit, when this team was formed by JV's ski-instructor and Adrian Reynard, they didn't have a clue. I can still remember how JV's entire rear bodywork flew off at the first test. But a ton of money from Lucky Strike, hell yeah.

Supercomputers from Stuttgart will be a fine asset, but individual attention to detail still rules in my world.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

You are correct JET, Bob Bell is probably the first senior engineer with a decent CV hired since who knows when.

But going back a bit, when this team was formed by JV's ski-instructor and Adrian Reynard, they didn't have a clue. I can still remember how JV's entire rear bodywork flew off at the first test. But a ton of money from Lucky Strike, hell yeah.

Supercomputers from Stuttgart will be a fine asset, but individual attention to detail still rules in my world.

Like Marcush said X, it breaks my heart to see a benz as unfinished as the W02. But who knows whats goin on behind closed doors. Maybe they are putting certain parts of engineering under the acid test to see what holds up and what doesnt.
As such, engineers will have various ideas of what is good for pushing the W02 forward. Some are more interchangeable than others. A working laboratory, Although the fit and finish of the car in Aus was very much improved from the test cars.

My overriding concern with this car is its wheelbase. With heavier cars this year and KERS why did they put so much pressure on themselves to have a compact wheelbase?

[PlatinumZealot]

how long is their gearbox compared to the redbull? I think they still have decent space to direct air though... the wheelbase might not be the problem...

[xpensive]

[quote="JohnsonsEvilTwin
My overriding concern with this car is its wheelbase. With heavier cars this year and KERS why did they put so much pressure on themselves to have a compact wheelbase?[/quote]

This is another enigma, isn't it JET? As if they would know something nobody else did? While making no other comparison, in my line of work, everytime some of my engineers comes up with a strange and untested idea, it most of the time proves useless after further investigation, but I rarely throw them out of my office.

Anyway, with Reynard and Oastler, the BAR engineering team were populated by however seasoned CART-designers, but all used to completey different technical standards, why I have a hunch most of them are still there. Unfortunately.

But again, what was RB's true job at Benetton and Ferrai, race-strategist?

[bot6]

They should just screw it all and copy redBull. You know my saying already... You Can't beat 'em, copy 'em.

Way to promote innovation and original thinking mate! Good on ya! =D>

Plagiarism is the answer, such a beautiful way to look at the world.

[dren]

They should just screw it all and copy redBull. You know my saying already... You Can't beat 'em, copy 'em.

And you know my saying "Copy 'em and you won't beat 'em."

I havent seen or heard of any flaws from the W02. Last year we had Ross and co banging on about weight distribution etc.
If you factor in the issues Mercedes and Ferrari where having, and discount planet Red Bull, all the teams are looking similar on pace.

And it probably inst a surprise to see that Mercedes and Ferrari struggled as they had shorter wheelbases then their opponents. Perhaps at Albert park this counts for something? Perhaps im clutching at Straws.

Copy Red Bull? Nope, just give that Benz or Ferrari a flexing nose wing...and see how much quicker it goes..especially round the faster sweeeping sections of a race track.....

The team noted Rosberg was capable in the race of similar times to Button when everything was working properly. I think the car is on par with the Mclaren, and I think Ferrari is right there as well. The fun will be in watching Ferrari, Mclaren, Merceds and Renault all duke it out for 2nd best.

[The FOZ]

you cant seriously say that mercedes came up with the exact same designs for the rear wing endplates as a matter of coincidence, came up with a similar airbox as a matter of coincidence came up with the same engine cover as a matter of coincidence, they have certainly took ideas off the bgp001 without a doubt, and have used the designs off the bgp001, no question about it, im not saying that they have made a brawn gp clone, all im saying is that alot of designs in the car has been influenced by the bgp001

Your concept of "exact same design" and mine are clearly different.

For me, exact same = dimensionally identical, within allowable tolerance. I haven't seen CMM data or CAD models on either car, so I don't know them to be identical.

You've either seen a CMM or CAD comparison between these cars, and know they're the exact same, or you're looking at 2D pictures, taken from varying angles, with differing cameras and lens geometries, and deciding that somehow if they look close enough to you, they MUST be the same!

The reality is that tiny differences matter. Seen any front wing designs lately? the tiniest of sculpted features matter - if they didn't, you can bet teams wouldn't be pouring time and money into such minute detail.

Follow the contours of the engine cover in both images you've posted - on the BGP01, the cover transitions horizontal BELOW the height of the raised areas on either side of the drivers helmet. On the W01, the transition occurs at the height of the raised areas - the entire thing is one smooth contour now. Forget tiny differences - there are liters of volume difference in that area alone!

Aerodynamic packaging is about minimizing volume of bodywork - you've got to imagine that differences that vast between the two designs indicate something different underneath...

But more to the point, OF COURSE the team uses design elements from year to year - nobody does a clean sheet design every season - the design overhead would cripple most teams nowadays. Maybe in the Ferrari circa 2000 era with Rory Byrne and the Ferrari's budget...Even then, elements were reused. Reinventing the wheel just to be different than last time is stupidity, and in a fixed timeframe with limited resources, you put the most attention into the most attention needing areas.

Really, though...pick any team, and look at their cars from the past few years. Chances are, you will see more similarities than differences, if you look hard enough. Then go to all the other car threads and post about how the cars are nearly the same and the new one is based right off the old one...and whomever my equivalent is in each of those threads can tear their hair out trying to explain this stuff to you there.

[N12ck]

sorry i may have worded it wrong, i apologize saying about being exactley the same, i understand what you are saying, but my point is if you look at the w01 and the bgp001 it looks as if its based more off the bgp001 design than the w01 design,

[bot6]

Well, going back to a design philosophy that got you two world championships only makes sense, considering the overwhelming success of the W01...

Not that it was a completely crappy car, fourth best is still not catastrophic. But it's not what Mercedes is aiming for.

So if it was working two years ago, why not use it at least as an inspiration?

[Ferraripilot]

I am in agreement with FOZ above in that there is no sense in reinventing the wheel just for the sake of being different. In F1, we all know subtle differences can make a substantial difference.

With W02, I believe we received exactly what we expected to receive which is a car better than last year and able to run closer to the front. I have no doubt the car has the speed of the Ferrari and perhaps the Mclaren. The double radiator design and I am sure the thorough internal repackaging has made a world of difference on the car in regards to balance as it is already quicker than W01 even with the added weight and subtracted DDD.

Yes, X, I am there with you. The details are important, but we cannot see what the wind tunnel sees and what lies underneath which is what's truly important besides winning races and being fast obviously. Can't write off a team or car after 1 race. That being said, I will be the first one to write it off if they can't get the setup right after a few races though. Might be difficult if Malay is raining....

[segedunum]

Frankly, going back to the 2009 Brawn smacks of desperation. I think Scarbs and others have done enough analysis of their 'new' front wing that they're not using to suggest that they've gone back to the Brawn in their efforts to try and move forwards.

At best, they're where they were last year. We'll see the exact gory specifics in the coming races.

[segedunum]

You know I was expecting A LOT more for the last Barcelona test and I had to accept that you were again right on the money that we would not see anything spectacular...I was a bit releaved when the times were encouraging.....

Come on Marcush. You didn't have to work hard to find out what was happening. Barcelona was by and large a disappointment, but they then turn up with some upgrades on the second last day, do nothing but qualifying runs so we couldn't compare them to anything else or their previous times and then they proclaim that everything was fine?