MP4-26 diffuser material

[murtoidf1]

Another change is that the diffuser is now made in titanium (highly resistant to heat), using a quick prototyping technique.

http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/ ... 4/845.html

So some kind of rapid prototyping for metals, if they're correct on this. SLS or electron beam welding. I'm still of the opinion that it started life as sheet metal though.

Scarbs, you out there man? Can you confirm with any sources at McLaren on the process they used?

It didn't start life as a sheet. It started life as powder. I've been saying this a while now and people find it hard to believe.

Either powder or a block of titanium was machined and i don't think they would machine a block to create something 3mm thick.

That diffuser was simply printed.

My laptop was machined from a block of aluminium, and parts of it are less that 2mm thick?

[bonjon1979]

Another change is that the diffuser is now made in titanium (highly resistant to heat), using a quick prototyping technique.

http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/ ... 4/845.html

So some kind of rapid prototyping for metals, if they're correct on this. SLS or electron beam welding. I'm still of the opinion that it started life as sheet metal though.

Scarbs, you out there man? Can you confirm with any sources at McLaren on the process they used?

It didn't start life as a sheet. It started life as powder. I've been saying this a while now and people find it hard to believe.

Either powder or a block of titanium was machined and i don't think they would machine a block to create something 3mm thick.

That diffuser was simply printed.

Are you suggesting it was made in a way similar to this? IF so that's pretty incredible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwuGbnjK ... re=related

[hollowBallistix]

i'm still of the opinion it started out as sheet metal also.

the main factor agains it being SLS :

The latest technology takes advantage of a ”dual spot” laser allowing feature sizes as small as 0.203mm to be built. With a machine build envelope of 250 x 250 x 215mm (9.84" x 9.84" x 8.46"), many medium to small parts and inserts can be constructed in hours and days versus days and weeks using traditional processes.

think the fact that the component size that can be manufactures is very limited, i'm still leaning towards superplatic forming with a lost wax ceramic die, quick to turn around & proven concept :

Superplastic forming of metal sheet, using gas pressure at elevated temperature at low strain rates, has been performed with ceramic dies formed using lost-wax techniques, which are utilised commonly in the manufacture of investment-casting moulds. In the case of superplastic forming, low die-loading and, commonly, low production volumes would permit the use of such disposable ceramic shell dies. Although care must be taken with these shell dies due to their limited mechanical strength, their use gives added flexibility to the process: this includes the production of re-entrant forms with good surface finish which would normally lead to considerable problems with conventional metal tooling


although I really do love watching that rapid prototyping !

[ringo]

You see the diffuser fins?
Those cannot be formed from the superplastic forming process.
The gurney cannot be formed either.
Moldings don't like sharp edges and narrow features. Also i don't think a gurney and fins can be drawn from one sheet. It's not possible to draw them out.
Lastly we are looking at something with varying thickness. Super plastic forming has no control over part thickness.
Think about it.

Super plastic forming was just mentioned in the thread for the fun of it, i don't think there is any real reason or evidence for them to use that process.
It's also not considered a rapid prototyping process since it requires so many steps and other elements, like moulds, to make a single part. It was reported that a prototyping process was used so i would stick with the DMLS method or a casting method.

[Cadas]

Hi,

I've been lurking and reading on the forum for a while and find it fascinating. But my reason for posting is the discussion over the fabrication of the diffuser.

My 'amateur suggestion' is that I'm leaning towards the casting route; if you look at the very bottom corner of the photo where you see the flange and diff junction, it looks like a curved fillet. Plus, there seems to be changes in thickness along the flange.

If cast, then you only have to machine the underside. The vertical fins look pressed and welded.

[Muulka]

All of this talk of metal seems very strange for something in modern F1....

Looks like in their haste McLaren have gone back about 20 years in terms of materials.

And a question- could someone please explain (in layman's terms) what all of these different methods mean (even the most basic lol. I really know nothing about metalwork).

[beelsebob]

All of this talk of metal seems very strange for something in modern F1....

Looks like in their haste McLaren have gone back about 20 years in terms of materials.

And a question- could someone please explain (in layman's terms) what all of these different methods mean (even the most basic lol. I really know nothing about metalwork).

Roughly the alternatives are...

Take a sheet of metal, heat it up, bend it over a mould... This is unlikely (a) because it would be pretty impossible to produce the separations under the diffuser and (b) because it would require making the mould first.

Take a block of metal, use a combination of grinders and lasers to cut away large sections of it – pretty plausable, can be done quickly from a CAD model and produces a very strong part.

Take a block of metal, melt it, pour it into a mould... Would require producing the mould, but is not entirely unlikely.

The ideal solution is to make the mould, lay strips of carbon fibre over it in a specific pattern, alternate with various resins and such to bond it all together into one cohesive structure... This is likely the way that what they turn up with in Malaysia will have been produced (assuming they don't still have an interim titanium diffuser).

[Formula None]

You see the diffuser fins? http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5190/556 ... 93c2_b.jpg
Those cannot be formed from the superplastic forming process.

I was under the impression the flow straightening fins were CF, due to their texture. Bonded separately.

The gurney cannot be formed either.
Moldings don't like sharp edges and narrow features. Also i don't think a gurney and fins can be drawn from one sheet. It's not possible to draw them out.
Lastly we are looking at something with varying thickness. Super plastic forming has no control over part thickness.
Think about it.

Only if you're assuming its a monolithic component, which is not clear from the photos. Certainly no one is imply one sheet is varying drastically in thickness. To create a part with volume, two or more sheets are used and bonded at the edges or various other locations on the part. This is where the "diffusion bonding" of "superplastic forming & diffusion bonding" comes into play. Its how two sheets are made into 3 dimensional parts with internal volume, such as turbofan blades. This also allows for separate pieces to be bonded to the part (if you need thicker wall in certain areas of the part, for example).

Super plastic forming was just mentioned in the thread for the fun of it, i don't think there is any real reason or evidence for them to use that process.

As was the suggestion of SLS/SLM after rapid prototyping had been suggested on the formula1.com technical section. No real confirmation yet either way. EBM might be a third option. Hopefully Scarbs can chat with someone at McLaren. Or maybe discuss it on the Flying Lap. *hint hint*

[beelsebob]

All of this talk of metal seems very strange for something in modern F1....

Looks like in their haste McLaren have gone back about 20 years in terms of materials.

And a question- could someone please explain (in layman's terms) what all of these different methods mean (even the most basic lol. I really know nothing about metalwork).

Roughly the alternatives are...

Take a sheet of metal, heat it up, bend it over a mould... This is unlikely (a) because it would be pretty impossible to produce the separations under the diffuser and (b) because it would require making the mould first.

Take a block of metal, use a combination of grinders and lasers to cut away large sections of it – pretty plausable, can be done quickly from a CAD model and produces a very strong part.

Take a block of metal, melt it, pour it into a mould... Would require producing the mould, but is not entirely unlikely.

The ideal solution is to make the mould, lay strips of carbon fibre over it in a specific pattern, alternate with various resins and such to bond it all together into one cohesive structure... This is likely the way that what they turn up with in Malaysia will have been produced (assuming they don't still have an interim titanium diffuser).

Oops missed one of the possibilities – take a big pile of powdered metal, and fuse it layer by layer with a laser (often called 3D printing) – this can also be done straight from a CAD model, I'm not certain just how strong the parts produced from this process are.

[hollowBallistix]

SPF & Diffusion bonding is rather a quick process & the shapes that can be done are more than capable of forming that diffuser



Example image or a muliple part assembly that can be done in one piece by superplastic forming., you can visit the website here http://rtiintl.com/superplastic-forming.html

If you have a look at the benefits & they applications & the fact that the diffuser looks more or less like it's a formed sheet of titanium thats got zircotec coating on it, this has to be the more logical choice than using 3D printing out of powdered titanium, bit i'm not discounting it, just that coming from a manufacturing/process background i'd be more inclined to follow SPF.

Yep, be interesting to see if we can find out what process they actually did use ! probably surprise us all now & they hand crafted it old coach building style hammer anyone ?

[Formula None]

Keep in mind one of the downsides of rapid prototyping & additive processes: they are one off parts. If you want a spare, you have to spend the same amount of time making the part again because you have no tooling. And then in the case of a large part like a diffuser, welding those sections together again. With SPF&DB you can actually do a production run of parts that require fewer post processes.

McLaren would want to have spares in case of shunts during practice or quali, as they would do with a CF part.

[Formula None]

hollowBallistix do you have any more info on ceramic dies or other thought on what type of tooling they used? Also, surely there are some aerospace-background lurkers out there who've yet to chime in on this topic that know more about SPF than we do...

[PlatinumZealot]

Sorry to interject.. Back on the casting vs sheet metal.
They both require a mould. The difference being that the casting mould can be made of sand from a plastic plug. The sheetmetal mould on the other hand has to be machined or cast from a big hunking block of tool steel to get any accuracy out of it.

So IMO the fastest cheapest ways are casting, (just like how the titanium uprights are casted) or DMLS into smaller components then fastened together.

[beelsebob]

Keep in mind one of the downsides of rapid prototyping & additive processes: they are one off parts. If you want a spare, you have to spend the same amount of time making the part again because you have no tooling. And then in the case of a large part like a diffuser, welding those sections together again. With SPF&DB you can actually do a production run of parts that require fewer post processes.

McLaren would want to have spares in case of shunts during practice or quali, as they would do with a CF part.

Actually, the drivers were on strict orders not to shunt with the Ti diffusers, because there were no spares.

[hollowBallistix]

hollowBallistix do you have any more info on ceramic dies or other thought on what type of tooling they used? Also, surely there are some aerospace-background lurkers out there who've yet to chime in on this topic that know more about SPF than we do...

I'm trying to find out some more information, but I do know Boing use ceramic dies to manufacture Titanium engine components.

Just think people hear "sheet" metal & presses, they assume that a complex diffuser couldn't be manufactured by this process, but in-fact by SPF & Diffusion Bonding, amazingly light, strong, durable & accurate parts can be made, hence the keen use by the Aerospace Industry.

If I had a few week to turn around a component then the sensible choice would be to use a manufacturing process that's proven & results in a product that could be groomed / tuned if required without the need to manufacture a complete new piece.