Virgin MVR-02 Cosworth

[siwillems]

Well im hoping that they still have high ambitions and that they are still on a steep learning curve. I really admire their controlled approach financialy. Hope fully, each years car will be able to make serious in roads into the competition especialy if they can harness CFD to the optimum and find the best mechanical package.

[siwillems]

out of interest, do other people believe Virgin will produce much in the way of performmance upgrades, I'd love to see what virgin are capable of through evolving the design as the season advances, but my gut feel is that the car will not change much at all except to address reliability issues.

[allstaruk08]

out of interest, do other people believe Virgin will produce much in the way of performmance upgrades, I'd love to see what virgin are capable of through evolving the design as the season advances, but my gut feel is that the car will not change much at all except to address reliability issues.

im not an expert but there has to come a point where they will start to develop the car and not just have reliability as their main focus, surely after a whole season and the winter they have the reliability sorted and can focus on actual performance development or they'll get no where lol

[adrianjordan]

out of interest, do other people believe Virgin will produce much in the way of performmance upgrades, I'd love to see what virgin are capable of through evolving the design as the season advances, but my gut feel is that the car will not change much at all except to address reliability issues.

Well, I believe they'll produce updates, whether they'll add much in the way of performance is another matter. I am in the group that think that the weakness at Virgin is not the CFD-centred approach, but the lack of designers coming up with good ideas...

[Florio]

out of interest, do other people believe Virgin will produce much in the way of performmance upgrades, I'd love to see what virgin are capable of through evolving the design as the season advances, but my gut feel is that the car will not change much at all except to address reliability issues.

They focused more so on reliability first, which they achieved during the winter testing. The net result of that is a car which finishes races, but is slow enough to be in danger for not qualifying for them. They have said they have minor changes for the car up until Turkey, with their main package coming there.

[PlatinumZealot]

out of interest, do other people believe Virgin will produce much in the way of performmance upgrades, I'd love to see what virgin are capable of through evolving the design as the season advances, but my gut feel is that the car will not change much at all except to address reliability issues.

Well, I believe they'll produce updates, whether they'll add much in the way of performance is another matter. I am in the group that think that the weakness at Virgin is not the CFD-centred approach, but the lack of designers coming up with good ideas...

You hit the nail on the head!

[siwillems]

out of interest, do other people believe Virgin will produce much in the way of performmance upgrades, I'd love to see what virgin are capable of through evolving the design as the season advances, but my gut feel is that the car will not change much at all except to address reliability issues.

Well, I believe they'll produce updates, whether they'll add much in the way of performance is another matter. I am in the group that think that the weakness at Virgin is not the CFD-centred approach, but the lack of designers coming up with good ideas...

You hit the nail on the head!

I too think this is most probably right. At the start of season I was looking for inroads to be made on the competition, however at the moment I'm struggling to see any improvment on last years car. My point with 'will we see any upgrades of any worth through the season' was me thinking aloud about how much creativity they have or haven't got to actually produce the upgrades.


I've seen it written that Virgin are on a steeper learning curve compared to the other new teams as they have spent more time trying to solve issues themselves rather than avoiding them such as the time spent on designing the gearbox casing. But if your on a budget why would you want to bother with all this uneccesary issues when you can buy a gearbox from Williams say that is reputed to be about four or five years more advanced performance wise than their current gearbox, they sure seem to be making life difficult for themselves and appears to fly in the face of what they want to acheive (cost efficiency) by going the CFD approach.

[marcush.]

I think one of the reasons is cost .Wirth has to make his company live and hiring top designers from other outfits is a matter of big money at his time...Force India ,Mercedes,Ferrari all seem to be in need for more creativity and expertise..so why should someone join Virgin?
The idea to make a strategic move with the gearbox...well in effect you need to chánge engine supply then so either Renault(Renault or RB box) or Ferrari (TR or Ferrari box) or use the old Williams box...I think the williamsbox has the internals needed but it is not much if at all better on the aero side-the easiest solution in the short term but will it be enough for 2012? what if the 2011Williams box is a fail ? you would collaborate with a team struggling with gearboxes?..I´m not sure if that´s what a new team needs.
Virgin has done the right thing in my view they slowly build up their knowledge base with a straightforward simple car,learning the ropes without killing themselves.They will not set the world alight with their performaance but maybe they will improve by 2% this year compared to last.If they can keep that rate and keep afloat they will undoubtedly knock on the door of Q3 some day.
Minardi was a backmarker for how many years ?

[Florio]

I think one of the reasons is cost .Wirth has to make his company live and hiring top designers from other outfits is a matter of big money at his time...Force India ,Mercedes,Ferrari all seem to be in need for more creativity and expertise..so why should someone join Virgin?
The idea to make a strategic move with the gearbox...well in effect you need to chánge engine supply then so either Renault(Renault or RB box) or Ferrari (TR or Ferrari box) or use the old Williams box...I think the williamsbox has the internals needed but it is not much if at all better on the aero side-the easiest solution in the short term but will it be enough for 2012? what if the 2011Williams box is a fail ? you would collaborate with a team struggling with gearboxes?..I´m not sure if that´s what a new team needs.
Virgin has done the right thing in my view they slowly build up their knowledge base with a straightforward simple car,learning the ropes without killing themselves.They will not set the world alight with their performaance but maybe they will improve by 2% this year compared to last.If they can keep that rate and keep afloat they will undoubtedly knock on the door of Q3 some day.
Minardi was a backmarker for how many years ?

Hit the nail on the head. Also though, many engineers are also wary on the 100% CFD approach. I think many would like to see the combined wind tunnel use too.

[ESPImperium]

The idea to make a strategic move with the gearbox...well in effect you need to chánge engine supply then so either Renault(Renault or RB box) or Ferrari (TR or Ferrari box) or use the old Williams box...I think the williamsbox has the internals needed but it is not much if at all better on the aero side-the easiest solution in the short term but will it be enough for 2012? what if the 2011Williams box is a fail ? you would collaborate with a team struggling with gearboxes?..I´m not sure if that´s what a new team needs.

Virgin has done the right thing in my view they slowly build up their knowledge base with a straightforward simple car,learning the ropes without killing themselves.They will not set the world alight with their performaance but maybe they will improve by 2% this year compared to last.If they can keep that rate and keep afloat they will undoubtedly knock on the door of Q3 some day.

Minardi was a backmarker for how many years ?

The gearbox probably could be supplied by Williams, the same box (LG 14) that is being used by Hispania is 3 years old in technology terms, to the X-Trac they are using thats seemingly based on 7 year old technology. Also if they were to use a Renault or Mercedes box for example, they could get them to manufacture a box case that suits the Cosworth CA2011 like what red Bull have for Toro Rosso and the Ferrari 056.

I agree that Virgin are doing the right thing bringing their knowledge base up over a period of time, but id have expected some inroads by now, Minardi were back markers for so long, and came within 2.2-2.7 seconds of the front guys regularly. Virgin are almost 2 times that margin.

They need to be within 3.3 of the front by the end of the year or id recon that they could be done as a team in my eyes. Hispania may be the team that hips their ass before the end of the season, once they both reach the 7,000km mark where they will be developing their cars fast and understanding what they have to the full.

[Chubbs]

The idea to make a strategic move with the gearbox...well in effect you need to chánge engine supply then so either Renault(Renault or RB box) or Ferrari (TR or Ferrari box) or use the old Williams box...I think the williamsbox has the internals needed but it is not much if at all better on the aero side-the easiest solution in the short term but will it be enough for 2012? what if the 2011Williams box is a fail ? you would collaborate with a team struggling with gearboxes?..I´m not sure if that´s what a new team needs.

Virgin has done the right thing in my view they slowly build up their knowledge base with a straightforward simple car,learning the ropes without killing themselves.They will not set the world alight with their performaance but maybe they will improve by 2% this year compared to last.If they can keep that rate and keep afloat they will undoubtedly knock on the door of Q3 some day.

Minardi was a backmarker for how many years ?

The gearbox probably could be supplied by Williams, the same box (LG 14) that is being used by Hispania is 3 years old in technology terms, to the X-Trac they are using thats seemingly based on 7 year old technology. Also if they were to use a Renault or Mercedes box for example, they could get them to manufacture a box case that suits the Cosworth CA2011 like what red Bull have for Toro Rosso and the Ferrari 056.

I agree that Virgin are doing the right thing bringing their knowledge base up over a period of time, but id have expected some inroads by now, Minardi were back markers for so long, and came within 2.2-2.7 seconds of the front guys regularly. Virgin are almost 2 times that margin.

They need to be within 3.3 of the front by the end of the year or id recon that they could be done as a team in my eyes. Hispania may be the team that hips their ass before the end of the season, once they both reach the 7,000km mark where they will be developing their cars fast and understanding what they have to the full.

7 year old technology? Where do you base that claim on?

[ESPImperium]

The idea to make a strategic move with the gearbox...well in effect you need to chánge engine supply then so either Renault(Renault or RB box) or Ferrari (TR or Ferrari box) or use the old Williams box...I think the williamsbox has the internals needed but it is not much if at all better on the aero side-the easiest solution in the short term but will it be enough for 2012? what if the 2011Williams box is a fail ? you would collaborate with a team struggling with gearboxes?..I´m not sure if that´s what a new team needs.

Virgin has done the right thing in my view they slowly build up their knowledge base with a straightforward simple car,learning the ropes without killing themselves.They will not set the world alight with their performaance but maybe they will improve by 2% this year compared to last.If they can keep that rate and keep afloat they will undoubtedly knock on the door of Q3 some day.

Minardi was a backmarker for how many years ?

The gearbox probably could be supplied by Williams, the same box (LG 14) that is being used by Hispania is 3 years old in technology terms, to the X-Trac they are using thats seemingly based on 7 year old technology. Also if they were to use a Renault or Mercedes box for example, they could get them to manufacture a box case that suits the Cosworth CA2011 like what red Bull have for Toro Rosso and the Ferrari 056.

I agree that Virgin are doing the right thing bringing their knowledge base up over a period of time, but id have expected some inroads by now, Minardi were back markers for so long, and came within 2.2-2.7 seconds of the front guys regularly. Virgin are almost 2 times that margin.

They need to be within 3.3 of the front by the end of the year or id recon that they could be done as a team in my eyes. Hispania may be the team that hips their ass before the end of the season, once they both reach the 7,000km mark where they will be developing their cars fast and understanding what they have to the full.

7 year old technology? Where do you base that claim on?

Patrick Head said so in the FP he commentated on in Canada last year on BBC 5LiveF1, he said the gearbox that Williams was using at the time was 2 years old and the X-Trac box technology was last used in 2004 on the BAR 004 seemingly. He said that he was totally surprised that the new teams just didnt go and take a gearbox from a 2006 or 2007 from a team that wasnt in use just to get the relyability.

What i think he was saying is that he is surproised that they didnt go to Toyota for their 2007 gearbox as the 2007 gearbox has very simmilar mountings to the CA2010.

Toyota gearboxes were relyable, and had up to date technology.

Alas, Hispania have bought a supply of gearboxes from Wiliams for €5m a year, that gives them a season old gearbox technology and unlimited support. With the same package, i think that Virgin could easily gain at least a second of time thrugh this strong and proven package.

I know money is tight at Virgin, and they have a rumored budget for 2011 of €65m, increased from €45.5m the year previous, but spending €5m on a proven and up to date component such as the gearbox i think would be a prudent spend for the team. Look at Team Lotus, they are spending €4m to gain the 2009 Red Bull box and spending €10m for the Renault power train, if they want KERS its in that package.

If i were virgin, they have 2 areas that need updating, the transmission, whitch would be €5m and if they could, spend €5m on a wind tunnel each year, with a deal simmilar to what Hispania have done with Mercedes. €5m may not be alot of time in comparison to the big guys and even some of the mid feild guys, but im sure that it would make the Virgin car alot better that it currently is.

Virgin may get embarrased this weekend if Hispania beat them and humiliated if the Hispania cars actually lap them in my opinion.

EDIT:

This is what Hispania last year, Virgin ran the same internals in their own case, Lotus ran the same thing, but with their own management structure;

[Fil]

Mark Gallagher, General Manager, Cosworth F1 Business Unit:
“The engine in Timo Glock’s car, Cosworth CA312, suffered a broken valve in FP2 and is therefore withdrawn from service. This valve suffered very minor damage as a result of the engine ingesting a metal fastener from the engine assembly during the Australian Grand Prix weekend..."

Ingesting a metal fastener from engine assembly?

As in, a fastener dropped into the engine and they ran it?


Somebody please tell me I've read this wrong!

[raymondu999]

What on earth is wrong with Nick Wirth's manufacturing materials/processes? D'Ambrosio's front wing just disintegrated due to the vibrations of a kerb!

[siwillems]

Thats it now for the MRV-02A, The next race we should hopefully se the new incarnation for virgin. My guess is it will have improvments in all areas front and rear wings, rear diffuser, new exhaust setup, new nose and also hopefully a revised floor. Fingers crossed [-o< [-o< [-o< or else it will be

Ps does anybbody have any knowledge on what the upgardes could be