Mercedes GP W02

[atanatizante]

...
Back on topic, it seems that they have kept the monkey seat from Melbourne, switched back to the Mark 1 wing and fitted the little Sauber like deflectors above the sidepod intake. Anybody seen any other changes this weekend?

What I find odd is that the rear wing seems to be the exact same as in Oz where they already had trouble with it...

They`ve got new barge boards underneath the nose, in front of the tea tray ...

Does anybody heard the rumor that they`ll setup the car with a high rack on China?

[Raptor22]

You mean with more forward rake.
Brawn mentioned they were looking into it perhaps by China.

Frankly I am loosing faith in their ability to develop their car.
Schumacher is wearing a brave happy face but the frustration is building in post practice and post race debriefing's. It appears that each time they change somethng in the set up it throw out other settings.

I suspect this was not as evident in the winter testing since the track temps were much lower and more forgiving.

Its clear the car has some pace but it only appears at certains times within race pace and the car has to be set up for quali trim to extract it.
Someone commemted on a very narrow set up "window" and I now subscribe to this.

Mercede's engineers do not understand their car. Pure and simple.

[siskue2005]

You mean with more forward rake.
Brawn mentioned they were looking into it perhaps by China.

Where did he say that?
if true, it can bring some laptimes
moreover Brawn is being diplomatic and saying high rake setup.....but actually he means flexing front wings + high rake setup

i really hope this could turn their fortunes! [-o<

[Ferraripilot]

You mean with more forward rake.
Brawn mentioned they were looking into it perhaps by China.

Where did he say that?
if true, it can bring some laptimes
moreover Brawn is being diplomatic and saying high rake setup.....but actually he means flexing front wings + high rake setup

i really hope this could turn their fortunes! [-o<

That's exactly how I am reading into that as well. They want to get more rake for now and soften up the front end until they have the flex wing bit figured out a bit more. A proper RB style front wing is worth nearly a second but they definitely need to have the rear end grip as well so it doesn't lose balance, perhaps the RB/Ferrari/Mcla exhaust would help as it doesn't lose as much energy as their current exhaust arrangement. Another problem is W02 is so short and oversteery that it's always going to go really wide out of the corners. As I was seeing it today, W02 was waaaaaayyy further wide than the Red Bulls.

Anyone else noticed how much larger W02's main front wing element is in comparison to everyone else's? It appears to be twice the width. Enormous thing really

[bosanac1]

Guys, remind me how Red Bull were doing two years after taking over Jag?

Right now, there is an immense time gap between the two top teams and the others, but as far as pecking order goes Mercedes is not quite as far as you might think. RBR and McLaren are obviously faster and Renault is definitely slightly faster and - more importantly - much more consistent. Ferrari are pretty much at the same level as Mercedes right now: sometimes fast, sometimes not, and having lots of issues they did not have in testing. That puts them around 4th/5th fastest which is by no means catastrophic. It's not the RA107.

Mercedes is a work in progress and it's only their second year. The car has shown sporadically it can be fast - at least Renault fast, maybe not RBR fast, it's all relative. But it can only do that when everything is working on it. In the past two races, that hasn't happened yet.

The other problem here is also the stupidly high expectations people have for a team that is only in its second year. Again, it took much longer than that for Red Bull to become "successful". They are still building a structure and I'm sure that Bell's arrival will bring about a few changes in the team. I wouldn't be surprised to see some more of the Renault staff transfer to Mercedes at the end of this season. Two years ago, Brawn had to fire over half the team. Now, they are still trying to rebuild and that takes time. Again, for the Red Bull fans: it took your favorite team that can do no wrong much longer than two years to get to where they are.

Chill guys.

Back on topic, it seems that they have kept the monkey seat from Melbourne, switched back to the Mark 1 wing and fitted the little Sauber like deflectors above the sidepod intake. Anybody seen any other changes this weekend?

What I find odd is that the rear wing seems to be the exact same as in Oz where they already had trouble with it...

don't agree at all

in 2009 they had the best car until red bull caught them up mid/late season, button jumped ship right after winning championship
2010 car underperformed blamed on weight distribution (change of ownership understandable)
2011 they had early start on WO2 and were confident they would be fighting at top

instead DRS problems/tyre wear has pushed them to middle field teams

if the rate of development from last season is any indication how the plan on improving W02 mercedes will be in for another hard season

[Lindz]

Remind me when Red Bull took over a championship-winning team, bot6.

Would Mercedes have purchased the team without their 2009 success? I say no. That's why their lack of pace is so interesting (to me). Merc wanted new Silver Arrows and wanted to be fighting at the top straight away. Red Bull eased into F1 and built their team from the carcass of a failed Mercedes-like foray (parallels between Jag's and Merc's thinking and approach to F1 is quite similar).

[Morteza]

Remind me when Red Bull took over a championship-winning team, bot6.

Would Mercedes have purchased the team without their 2009 success? I say no. That's why their lack of pace is so interesting (to me). Merc wanted new Silver Arrows and wanted to be fighting at the top straight away. Red Bull eased into F1 and built their team from the carcass of a failed Mercedes-like foray (parallels between Jag's and Merc's thinking and approach to F1 is quite similar).

Mercedes has to do what Red Bull did as it seems so.

[bot6]

Lindz, do you really think Brawn GP had the best car by the end of 2009? Remember that the BGP01 was designed with all the Honda infrastructure and funding behind it. All those tools and all that money vanished on the first day of the 2009 season. This meant zero development for the BGP01 and little resources to design the BGP02/W01.

I don't know where you work, but try to cut that workforce in half and the budget by 75% and see how that affects your company's efficiency.

When Merc bought the team, they bought a small team with limited resources that had nothing to do (except the buildings) with the Honda team that designed the double diffuser car.

In many respects, Jag was a bigger and more established team when Red Bull bought it than Brawn was by the end of 2009.

It takes time to build a team and carry it to championship level. And many people forget that, and forget the fact that Brawn and Schumi have done it twice already with Benetton and Ferrari.

Why is it that just because a car is painted silver with a three branch star on it, everybody thinks anything else than victory all the time is an utter and absolute failure? We all have to be realistic about the chances of a team that has existed for only two seasons.

[Fil]

When Merc bought the team, they bought a small team with limited resources that had nothing to do (except the buildings) with the Honda team that designed the double diffuser car.

You say that like it's a bad thing?

If I were buying the team, I'd want as little Honda influence left as possible!

Why is it that just because a car is painted silver with a three branch star on it, everybody thinks anything else than victory all the time is an utter and absolute failure? We all have to be realistic about the chances of a team that has existed for only two seasons.

Fair points there.


Sometimes I wonder whether we're seeing the outcome of internal cultural conflicts like that which were present in the Williams/BMW partnership.

[Lindz]

Lindz, do you really think Brawn GP had the best car by the end of 2009? Remember that the BGP01 was designed with all the Honda infrastructure and funding behind it. All those tools and all that money vanished on the first day of the 2009 season. This meant zero development for the BGP01 and little resources to design the BGP02/W01.

I don't know where you work, but try to cut that workforce in half and the budget by 75% and see how that affects your company's efficiency.

When Merc bought the team, they bought a small team with limited resources that had nothing to do (except the buildings) with the Honda team that designed the double diffuser car.

In many respects, Jag was a bigger and more established team when Red Bull bought it than Brawn was by the end of 2009.

It takes time to build a team and carry it to championship level. And many people forget that, and forget the fact that Brawn and Schumi have done it twice already with Benetton and Ferrari.

Why is it that just because a car is painted silver with a three branch star on it, everybody thinks anything else than victory all the time is an utter and absolute failure? We all have to be realistic about the chances of a team that has existed for only two seasons.

I'll agree with this. I think it's mainly Mercedes' attitude with their return to F1 that turned me off. They didn't buy a failed team and restructure. They bought a WCC team and tried to keep it going with the minimal amount of input/money as possible. It's stupid. Especially since it's the Brackley squad.

I'm sorry, but poach the best people you can, hire a young fresh staff and give them a modern, fun environment to spur creativity. Say that you are doing this and don't pretend like you are going to be coming out looking for championships. Oh wait, if you did that, you'd be 'just a drinks company' and people would try to discredit you for for everything.

[kalinka]

As McL fan, I think Mercedes lacks just that systematic approach that McL has. Of course their experience is much shorter. All I see is an absence of this systematic approach. They just don't have a clue about what's wrong ( at least it seems so ). Brawn's statement for TRYING high rake...how could he say that...it means they're really in i big mess, and doesn't have a clue what's the problem. If you compare it to McL's situation in 2009, that was worst, but the team seems to know from the beginning what went wrong, and all efforts and resources was directed towards the problem ( DDD and general lack of DF ). I know it's not that simple, but do they have something to point out as a main problem with W02 ? And do we see any clear development direction with W02 ? I really hoped that we can see 4 teams at the top in 2011, and big fights amongst them, but I really loosing faith in Mercedes now.

[marcush.]

the car is fragile when it comes to subsystems and way too conservative or better said lacking key technology which is a perfpormance differentiator.

That rake thing...come on ..RedBull did not invent rake....it´s been on the agenda since flat bottom cars are around.It´s well understood and everyone in the grid has a clue of aeromaps and adjusts suspension to give favourable rideheights at the right time.RedBull are obviously sacrifying topspeed deliberately and you can see that they are dead slow on the straights.So :not winning the start will ruin your race...

Lifting the ass will NOT suddenly double up your downforce...it will help definetely but not as much as lowering the front...
With the step plane sidepods elevated from the ground your lifting of the rear will also lift the leading edge of the sidepods so is this really helping things
as much ?

[TURU]

As McL fan, I think Mercedes lacks just that systematic approach that McL has. Of course their experience is much shorter. All I see is an absence of this systematic approach. They just don't have a clue about what's wrong ( at least it seems so ). Brawn's statement for TRYING high rake...how could he say that...it means they're really in i big mess, and doesn't have a clue what's the problem. If you compare it to McL's situation in 2009, that was worst, but the team seems to know from the beginning what went wrong, and all efforts and resources was directed towards the problem ( DDD and general lack of DF ). I know it's not that simple, but do they have something to point out as a main problem with W02 ? And do we see any clear development direction with W02 ? I really hoped that we can see 4 teams at the top in 2011, and big fights amongst them, but I really loosing faith in Mercedes now.

They seem to lack everything. Beginning with money, (quality) people, resources, good management (yes I think Haug and Brawn aren't doing a particulary good job atm). This team looks like Honda on a diet. But they still have a championship winning car to base their design on and I think that's the only thing which prevents them from being where Honda used to be...

They don't know where the problem lies with the car. Everything we hear about DRS, KERS and so on, are just excuses. Yes they have some reliability issues, but the car simply lacks pace (especially race pace).

As for 2011 season and hoping for a 4way battle at the top .... well, Renault is there, isn't it?

[kalinka]

As for 2011 season and hoping for a 4way battle at the top .... well, Renault is there, isn't it?

You're right. Just I'm not sure they can keep up with top temas yet with the development pace in long terms.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

The situation is not unsalvageable. The car operates in a small performance window, as we can tell from various stages of the races and testing so far.
To stick the boot in is understandable, I did it Sunday too. But some are now taking this too far.

Brawn has said he thinks he knows how red bull are attaining their flex. It is not solely through the act of the wing flex alone that gets the RB wing so low, it's also through rake. He did muse as to how much rake it took, but nevertheless Horners comments were taken at face value.
It is in mercedes best interests to run this rake, as it clearly works for Red Bull. This is not desperation, it is logical and any attempts to say otherwise is a bit unfair. If it doesn't work after various iterations, move on. But that mercedes need to try something is a given.