Flexible wings 2011

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bill shoe
bill shoe
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Joined: 19 Nov 2008, 08:18
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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This is not a "Red Bull cheats" comment.

Did anyone else notice that Webber's bib stay was not attached to the tea tray late in the race? It was dangling from under the monocoque. The bottom of the FIA-mandated stay was tiny as it flapped around, the fastener that failed there couldn't have been bigger than a thumbtack. I assume the other teams are equally unenthusiastic about making the bib stay solid.

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kemalcan
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Joined: 31 May 2010, 17:27
Location: Istanbul

Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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they put a flexi camera to the car so nobody can spot the flexing wings :lol:

http://www.megavideo.com/?v=RFMF07A7

avatar
avatar
3
Joined: 13 Mar 2009, 22:01

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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question: is RBR's rake purely rear ride height (and maybe a bit of front raising for bib clearance), or is the floorline set at a higher angle in the car?

By higher i mean relative to the parts without a mandated distance from the reference plane.

we're seeing the result, but might be missing/overlooking a key piece of geometry in the car as it's a bit unconventional.

a bit like when we used to use a slimmed engine mount in karting (to drop the engine for CoG). changed a load of angles, but kept the legal measures legal. no one really cottoned on, though they all started copying our heat sheilding on the rear bumper (our exhaust exited at an odd angle, theirs did not).

avatar
avatar
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Joined: 13 Mar 2009, 22:01

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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Also, if high rake = low wing = more ground effect as an explanation for super flexing, as well as the wider aero implcation (that i don't fully grasp)
should the FIA not look at extending the plank length to the front wheel center line(?), unless they want the teams spending a load of money in research for this. it would have to be a between seasons change though, which probably defeats cost savinv as an argument....

Formula None
Formula None
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Joined: 17 Nov 2010, 05:23

Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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Nice video, thanks kemalcan.

Did anyone else notice a support was added to the RB7's t tray?

Australia on top, Malaysia below:

Image

Australia:

Image

Malaysia:

Image

RB had a hinging t tray last year to get more rake, didn't they? I believe it inspired this revision:
3.13.1 Beneath the surface formed by all parts lying on the reference plane, a rectangular skid block, with a
50mm radius (+/-2mm) on each front corner, must be fitted. This skid block may comprise no more than
three pieces, the forward one of which may not be any less than 1000mm in length
,
Maybe they have a flexing t tray this year?

Is Flexi Lexi just a Rakish Raquel?

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forty-two
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Joined: 01 Mar 2010, 21:07

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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avatar wrote:... should the FIA not look at extending the plank length to the front wheel center line(?), unless they want the teams spending a load of money in research for this.
Actually I think the fact that the FIA measure stuff with reference to a line formed by the sprung part of the car is a bit of a joke.

In my opinion, RBR have set up their car such that when stationary, their angle of rake is such that the "reference plane" is pointing down into the ground, meaning that they can "legally" have their wing scrape the ground. When the car gets moving, the back end is sucked to the floor (presumably rising rate suspension setup?) while the nose bends backwards as a result of bendy nosecone, support pylons and floppy middle section.

It is clever stuff, but dangerous in my opinion.
The answer to the ultimate question, of life, the Universe and ... Everything?

zorog
zorog
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Joined: 15 May 2010, 21:01

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TMiAQ6-hRA[/youtube]

Not much flex on the Renault

animax
animax
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Joined: 11 Apr 2011, 04:07

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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I think that the whole point of RBR front wing, is making the huge pressure on the smallest possible surface of the front wing.By that,the front wing can pass more demanding FIA test and it won't bend,couse it's only a small part who should be bending.I believe, that's why the last part of front wing is in the shape of a
spoon
.With this shape,they can direct the air flow towards the outer part of the wing,where is creating huge amount of pressure,together with the air flow directed by the additional added elements at the end of the wing.That's why I believe,that RBR front wing is made in the same way as others.The only difference is the pressure distribution over the surface of the front wing.Mclaren on the other hand, is splitting the air flow on two parts, while Ferrari front wing is similiar to RBR,but not quite(yet :twisted: ).

RBR last element:
http://skrci.me/pGD5S
RBR fw:
http://skrci.me/qICj4
Mclaren & Ferrari fw:
http://skrci.me/ZawOV
http://skrci.me/Vi23R

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Lindz
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Joined: 09 Feb 2011, 11:01

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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forty-two wrote:In my opinion, RBR have set up their car such that when stationary, their angle of rake is such that the "reference plane" is pointing down into the ground, meaning that they can "legally" have their wing scrape the ground. When the car gets moving, the back end is sucked to the floor (presumably rising rate suspension setup?) while the nose bends backwards as a result of bendy nosecone, support pylons and floppy middle section.

It is clever stuff, but dangerous in my opinion.


From page 19...
Lindz wrote:Let me put this out there: if you can't have any bodywork below the reference plane, but you run enough rake on your car that the reference plane touches the ground during decent compression in front of the front wheels... how is your wing being close (even touching) to the ground illegal? It's not breaking the reference plane.

This is in addition to it passing all the tests set forth to regulate what is deemed to be allowable amounts of flex.

What part is it outright breaking?


So, I (somewhat) agree with you. I think that's how the wing is able to be so close to the ground. I think that it flexes a very similar amount as McLaren's (as we've seen) but the little bit more that it does flex is from added suction from 'ground effect' and aero load due to a bigger frontal area.

I bought into the nosecone and/or flexible pylons for a bit, but I really just think it's so much simpler than that. I've seen the onboard camera comparison at low speed and high speed, and the 'evidence' of nose cone flex is circumstantial at best; optical illusion at 'worst'.

I just think that rake + construction of wing + design of wing are all the factors needed to achieve what they are doing.

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FW17
170
Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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zorog wrote:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TMiAQ6-hRA[/youtube]

Not much flex on the Renault

What happened to the steering wheel and column after the crash?

tok-tokkie
tok-tokkie
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Joined: 08 Jun 2009, 16:21
Location: Cape Town

Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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Formula None wrote: Did anyone else notice a support was added to the RB7's t tray?
That little support failed on Webber's car during the race.

shelly
shelly
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Joined: 05 May 2009, 12:18

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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forty-two wrote:

In my opinion, RBR have set up their car such that when stationary, their angle of rake is such that the "reference plane" is pointing down into the ground, meaning that they can "legally" have their wing scrape the ground.
The point, as richrad leeds and hters wrote, is that with current regulation on dimensions even in high rake attitude you can not get the front wing so low without some non rigid part somewhere (tea tray, or nose or front wing or all of them).
All these parts are subject to flexibility test and rbr are fully compliant.
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FW17
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: Red Bull RB7 Renault

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Formula None wrote: Image
shelly wrote:
forty-two wrote:

In my opinion, RBR have set up their car such that when stationary, their angle of rake is such that the "reference plane" is pointing down into the ground, meaning that they can "legally" have their wing scrape the ground.
The point, as richrad leeds and hters wrote, is that with current regulation on dimensions even in high rake attitude you can not get the front wing so low without some non rigid part somewhere (tea tray, or nose or front wing or all of them).
All these parts are subject to flexibility test and rbr are fully compliant.

Was just running a few basic CAD angles and found that rake angle thing may not be entirely impossible to discount.

As seen in the image, the splitter is about an inch off the ground.

Splitter being the reference, the front wing will be 85 mm above the reference line.

(assumed car length as 5 m)

Considering no rake angle (plank is flat), rear wheel axle as the pivot line, as the splitter starts to bottom out, the front wing will be 34 mm lower or 50 mm above the road surface.

Adding for the 10 mm deformation with 200 kg loading the wing will be 40 mm off the road surface.

If the rake angle story of RBR is to be believed and they are running an additional 25 mm at the rear, the front wing will be just 35 mm off the ground. Adding for deformation front wing will be down to 25 mm off the ground. At the rear the center step of the car will be 50 mm off the ground.

Which is what is seen in RBR front and rear.

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Lindz
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Joined: 09 Feb 2011, 11:01

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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^^^
Exactly, except I believe the test is 20mm deflection, with 100kg per side on the endplates.

So, that will account for an even closer proximity to the ground.


Edit: image link: http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/ ... 6/846.html

malcolm
malcolm
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Joined: 28 Aug 2008, 16:45

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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Note: to the "bridging the gap" people... Getting a piece of bodywork close to the ground isn't bridging the gap. Having it occasionally touch the ground isn't bridging any gaps. Installing a sliding skirt that always rubs the ground is bridging the gap.

Like what someone else said 20 pages ago, what good is a bridge if it only goes most of the way?



Also, I agree with Lindz... Stiff heave, soft roll-bar; this allows for mechanical balance but resists squatting at high speeds to keep the front wing low. It's the sum of a moderately flexible wing, moderately flexible nose, soft front heave, stiff rear heave and lots of rake... this allows the front of the car to drop further from static rake settings, and the increased ground effect further flexing the wing closer to the ground. If it was any one thing, another team would have copied, but like a few other team bosses said, it is an entire design direction that you would need to go toward to make any of it work.