Mercedes GP W02

[TURU]

Brawn has said he thinks he knows how red bull are attaining their flex. It is not solely through the act of the wing flex alone that gets the RB wing so low, it's also through rake. He did muse as to how much rake it took, but nevertheless Horners comments were taken at face value.
It is in mercedes best interests to run this rake, as it clearly works for Red Bull. This is not desperation, it is logical and any attempts to say otherwise is a bit unfair. If it doesn't work after various iterations, move on. But that mercedes need to try something is a given.

I really don't get this flexy thing... How do you know it's the silver bullet which makes Red Bull so fast. I for one am quite sure Newey & co are very pleased that everyone focus on their FW. But even if we assume that this is the key, I doubt you can simply increase rake without any major changes to the car. For example, rising the back can cause diffuser to stall. Is that right? Also what about the front splitter. RB7 looks to be almost designed with that big rake in mind.

[kalinka]

It is in mercedes best interests to run this rake, as it clearly works for Red Bull. This is not desperation, it is logical and any attempts to say otherwise is a bit unfair. If it doesn't work after various iterations, move on. But that mercedes need to try something is a given.

I can agree that they should look into that possibility. But hearing someone like Brawn to say "we'll TRY" is what amuses me. I mean you should be quite sure ( if you understand the car ) should be that high rake would do some good to the car. Maybe I'm just exagerrating Brwan's words, but he should say : we know that our car is not set up correctly, and we need that high rake for our car to work best. It's not THAT complicated thing in my mind as let's say EBD or F-Duct. We see last year McLaren struggling with EBD and RBR struggling with F-Duct. They both know they must implement their solutions to be fast, but they run into problems, but they were certain in interviews that they need this stuff. I just miss that determination at Merc....which for me indicates that they even don't know what they really need....

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

@TURU

Its fairly straightforward that if you can run your wing closer to the ground you will have an advantage. Red Bull clearly do this, and it needs to be replicated if Mercedes want to progress, as it seems the FIA think its legal.

@ Kalinka
Dont put much value on what Brawn says. I've learnt that this last 15 months.
I'd rather he just got on with whatever it is he does.

[horse]

Its fairly straightforward that if you can run your wing closer to the ground you will have an advantage.

There are some issues you have to deal with as well which might prove difficult for the compact Mercedes. Consider the rake angle of the Red Bull and then the height of the rear of the car. This is obviously raising the CoG of the rear of the Red Bull. I believe the packaging of the Red Bull (being long and thin), alleviates some of the negative impacts of raising the rear of the car, however for a car as "stumpy" (probably to strong a word) as the W02, lifting the rear might prove much more unsettling.

[bot6]

Changing the rake is really not that easy to do, considering that it completely changes the aero of the car. It's only going to require a new floor and diffuser, new front wing, new beam wing and new rear wing, as all of these elements need to be optimized for a new angle of attack.

[horse]

I guess the underfloor aero would improve without too much adjustment, but I agree with you that, considering all the issues they've had with it, trying to increase the angle of attack on the rear wing would be a total disaster for them.

[Raptor22]

David Coulthard mentioned he chatted to BRawn and asked him what he found most interesting on the Red Bull. BRawn mentioned it was the higher degree of rake they run on the car. He did not mention their front wing.

The higher rake as someonepointed out has a knock on effect to design of the entire floor and splitter.

However, I suspect their biggest issue is tyre performance. they seem to have a car thats hardest on the tyres and is most sensitive to the tyre conmdition at any particular point in the race.
I suspects it not a problem with any one particular feature but just a total lack of mechanical grip and they're shy on downforce.

If they alter the floor and splitter they will most likely have to find another ideal solution in front wing design.

I think we see at low grip circuits the car will go well because its a problem everyone will have. But where the race track offers up more grip Mercede's are going to be found wanting. Not sure which ciurcuits these wil be but Barcelona seems to fit that bill.

The McLaren and Red Bull and Sauber seem to be the most versatilecars on the grid. I'll bet Mercedes are rueing not partnering with Sauber after BMW sold out. Politically it was not attractive to them. Big mistake.

[marcush.]

so it´s pure coincidence that those two teams who obviously worked most on their flexible wings are driving circles around the not haves?
Mclaren has a completely different car concept BUT has emulated RBs effort into the research of flexible wings this winter.And bang they are right there...could be but it could be something else.. maybe pullrod?

The Sauber facility would have been a goldmine ..and still old ties to stuttgart and not a channel in between ..I also think they were ill advised and based their decision on the wrong facts back then.
But then ..would Key work there now ? we don´t know.A Kobayashi-Schumacher combo would surely have been a kracker...and coming from a disastrous position it would have been less difficult to explain the results...but who in Mercedes would have gone with Norbert proposing this when a champions team was on sale +Brawn???

[Raptor22]

Marc I am not discounting the Flex wing theory. All I am relating is what Brawn was discussing with Coulthard. I am sure Mercede's have a team working on flex wings as wellbut they;re not about to admit "we're working on flexible wings" are they....

What is certain isthat MErcedes has produced a better car than they did last year.
Its just that others have made a much bigger leap forward e.g. Sauber (isn't BMW kicking themselves)

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

The problem I have with following Red Bulls lead is this: the rake of the car is steep, it acts near enough like a self levelling suspension.
Is this really legal?
It's very clever in that the car compresses under aerodynamic pressure, lowering the nose further to the ground and gain big time in effieciency. The obvious thing would be for mercedes to copy it immediately and see what they can learn.

But whilst it's not self levelling, its defiantly acting as a moveable aero device.
Legalities?

[Coefficient]

The tyres look very different to what we had last year. Even the tyres on Button's McLaren after Melbourne 2009 didn't look half as bad.

I doubt Button was troubled by tyre wear on the Mclaren in 2009, not least because he was driving for Brawn GP that year.

[Spartan202]

Since the whole car bends forwards under downforce it's not actually a "device" imo. The whole car's front is lowered by an ingenious design and after all the suspension is allowed to move up and down under pressure.
Implementing this feature on our short wheel base car might not give the same benefits though

[i70q7m7ghw]

The problem I have with following Red Bulls lead is this: the rake of the car is steep, it acts near enough like a self levelling suspension.
Is this really legal?
It's very clever in that the car compresses under aerodynamic pressure, lowering the nose further to the ground and gain big time in effieciency. The obvious thing would be for mercedes to copy it immediately and see what they can learn.

But whilst it's not self levelling, its defiantly acting as a moveable aero device.
Legalities?

It's not a moveable aero device. Simple fact is the Red Bull passes all of the FIA tests, so it's legal. I'm fed up with everybody trying to just get the Red Bull banned. There was some weight in the argument at the start, but all the other teams really should have been able to catch up now. Why don't Mercedes already have a flexing wing?

[marcush.]

Marc I am not discounting the Flex wing theory. All I am relating is what Brawn was discussing with Coulthard. I am sure Mercede's have a team working on flex wings as wellbut they;re not about to admit "we're working on flexible wings" are they....

What is certain isthat MErcedes has produced a better car than they did last year.
Its just that others have made a much bigger leap forward e.g. Sauber (isn't BMW kicking themselves)

I think Brawn and others simply took the stance that FIA would forcefully intervene and all the effort put into the flextechnology was going to be a writoff...(RRA anyone? you need to decide in which basket to put your eggs
..so they thought it was not worth to follow a road that was a dead end..in fact Brawn should have remembered how long it took FIA to close the DDD loophole...)
Now that it´s clear no further action is taken by FIA we will see rediculous bending of whole tubs under load ,right?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

The problem I have with following Red Bulls lead is this: the rake of the car is steep, it acts near enough like a self levelling suspension.
Is this really legal?
....?

It's not a moveable aero device. Simple fact is the Red Bull passes all of the FIA tests, so it's legal. I'm fed up with everybody trying to just get the Red Bull banned. There was some weight in the argument at the start, but all the other teams really should have been able to catch up now. Why don't Mercedes already have a flexing wing?

Fed up or not, it moves. Therefore as the wing is adjusting along with the rest of the car, how else can it be deemed other than moveable aero?
Im not disputing wether what Red Bull does is legal or not, the same way I didnt dispute the legal side of the DDD. What Red Bull have done is beaten the test. does not mean that the car itself is not acting as a moveable aerodynamic device. All is fair in love and war, and Red Bull deserve credit for that.

Mercedes will need to replicate the philosophy on their own car to gain anything from this season. All team will have to, the same as the DDD.
But with the W02 being short and fat as opposed to long and lithe like the Red Bull, It will take a hell of a lot of work to get right.
Raising the rear will bring up the dreaded balance issues of last year. Im pretty certain the forward section of the car can be adjusted in a straightforward fashion. But its what happens to their Balance,cooling and exhaust philosophy the moment the ass is raised.

Watching Schumacher slide around it seems the Merc has problems with rear and front end transfer, turning into oversteer on slower coners. Basically a fricking nightmare. And this is with their optimised ride height. Raising the rear may amplify these issues and will mean a change of thinking(or even staff )

In essence then, Bob Bell has a mother load of work to get through.