Mercedes GP W02

[GSBellew]

Wagen/Wagon I believe. They call their cars with a W code too. Eg W221 etc

W is also the part of the WMI in a vehicles VIN number that denotes Germany as the country of origin of the manufacturer, ie WDB / WDC / WDD etc are used by Mercedes WVW by Volkswagen WAU by Audi WOL by Opel

[3one]

With the W02 oversteering going out of slow corners, it definitely shows poor rear mechanical grip...

This maybe the reason why they ditched the new wing design, as it seems to generate more DF than the one they're using now that would make the car oversteer more...

I think what they can only in china is try to tune the car mechanically (softer rear suspension setup maybe)... as aero parts would be out of the question... After they sort this out maybe go back to the new wing and hope they get good gains on this...

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

With the W02 oversteering going out of slow corners, it definitely shows poor rear mechanical grip...

This maybe the reason why they ditched the new wing design, as it seems to generate more DF than the one they're using now that would make the car oversteer more...

I think what they can only in china is try to tune the car mechanically (softer rear suspension setup maybe)... as aero parts would be out of the question... After they sort this out maybe go back to the new wing and hope they get good gains on this...

In a way, a higher rake with a softer sprung suspension as the Red Bull seems to be a good way to overcome the issue, with the added benefit of "squatting" the front wing closer to the ground.
Solutions.

And for the record guys, W is indeed code for Wagen. Although Mercedes do use other codes (lately) for various other cars like R in the case of the current SLK(R171) which stands for Roadster, or C in the case of the SLS(197) which stands for Coupe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:M ... z_vehicles

[Ferraripilot]

With the W02 oversteering going out of slow corners, it definitely shows poor rear mechanical grip...

This maybe the reason why they ditched the new wing design, as it seems to generate more DF than the one they're using now that would make the car oversteer more...

That is precisely the reason they are not running the Mark III wing (my name for it). If they get the rear end in-line with the downforce the front wing is producing I bet they could be onto something a little better.

Regarding wings, I was inspecting Mclaren's 3 element a bit further and from what I can tell it appears to be a proper 3 element evolution to the MB 2 element unit with of course different cascades and endplates etc. Although if MB had something like that I bet their rear end would be even further compromised. Point is, they see what the competition has and need to be right there with them.

[3one]

In a way, a higher rake with a softer sprung suspension as the Red Bull seems to be a good way to overcome the issue, with the added benefit of "squatting" the front wing closer to the ground.
Solutions.

Reading between the lines on what Ross said they might indeed go for a higher rake come China... Increase the rear grip then plug in the Mark III wing... I guess that would improve their position to 4th in the pecking order... Fingers crossed that is... Another factor would be that China would be colder (sub 20deg) which is similar to the temps they got from Barcelona which can reduce those heating problems... Hopefully they get their setups right this friday...

That is precisely the reason they are not running the Mark III wing (my name for it). If they get the rear end in-line with the downforce the front wing is producing I bet they could be onto something a little better.

Regarding wings, I was inspecting Mclaren's 3 element a bit further and from what I can tell it appears to be a proper 3 element evolution to the MB 2 element unit with of course different cascades and endplates etc. Although if MB had something like that I bet their rear end would be even further compromised. Point is, they see what the competition has and need to be right there with them.

I think MB concentrated on the front end of the car too much they totally forgot the rear... LOL... But definitely it would be useless for MB to develop the wing further without first fixing the rear...

I think they can sacrifice a little bit of straight line speed and put it into a proper cornering setup... Make that darn tail stick! It's a bit sad having two talented drivers Schumi and Nico getting left behind...

[jav]

getting rid of front downforce to balance the rear seems counter productive and another band-aid. It seems to me they need to figure out whats goin on at the rear. If it is a downforce issue- it seems more logical to work on increasing rear downforce so that they can also increase front downforce to keep balance.

Or is it truelly a rear down force issue? I was under the impression the short wheelbase improved diffuser efficiency.. what if it's not a rear downfroce issue at all? I'm curious if the exhaust is over heating the rear tires in corners? They had those ribs on the floor to direct exhaust flow inboard of the tires but I can't imagine that was truelly modelled with yaw- where cornering heat would also be worse. It seems to me that with rear grip and rear wear being an issue- not ducting the exhaust ala redbull may be a question?

[3one]

getting rid of front downforce to balance the rear seems counter productive and another band-aid. It seems to me they need to figure out whats goin on at the rear. If it is a downforce issue- it seems more logical to work on increasing rear downforce so that they can also increase front downforce to keep balance.

Or is it truelly a rear down force issue? I was under the impression the short wheelbase improved diffuser efficiency.. what if it's not a rear downfroce issue at all? I'm curious if the exhaust is over heating the rear tires in corners? They had those ribs on the floor to direct exhaust flow inboard of the tires but I can't imagine that was truelly modelled with yaw- where cornering heat would also be worse. It seems to me that with rear grip and rear wear being an issue- not ducting the exhaust ala redbull may be a question?

The question now is what can they do in China... Given there won't be any major aero updates the only thing they can do is tweak the suspension...

Well aero downforce is another issue, but their more important problem is the oversteering car on slow corners which needs more mechanical grip rather than aero grip... Softening their suspension would help, only after sorting this problem would they be able to go for aero solutions... But i guess the next set of aero upgrades would be concentrated to the rear...

Fingers crossed that they don't end up behind the saubers again...

[horse]

I was under the impression the short wheelbase improved diffuser efficiency.

Generally downforce increases as H/L reduces, 'H' being ride height and 'L' being the length of the floor. So a longer floor at the same ride height and diffuser angle should improve downforce. The issue is the onset of diffuser stall where H/L becomes too small for a particular diffuser angle. Mercedes seem to have been too conservative with this calculation, or not realised the methods of artificially increasing the 'effective' diffuser angle by rake (Red Bull) or big Gurneys (McLaren - should be Williams too) and possibly lots of blowing (Sauber).

[Ferraripilot]

getting rid of front downforce to balance the rear seems counter productive and another band-aid. It seems to me they need to figure out whats goin on at the rear. If it is a downforce issue- it seems more logical to work on increasing rear downforce so that they can also increase front downforce to keep balance.

Or is it truelly a rear down force issue? I was under the impression the short wheelbase improved diffuser efficiency.. what if it's not a rear downfroce issue at all? I'm curious if the exhaust is over heating the rear tires in corners? They had those ribs on the floor to direct exhaust flow inboard of the tires but I can't imagine that was truelly modelled with yaw- where cornering heat would also be worse. It seems to me that with rear grip and rear wear being an issue- not ducting the exhaust ala redbull may be a question?

The short wheelbase does increase diff efficiency but it sure doesn't help flow having the widest sidepods on the field. The exhaust system loses too much energy in its current position and probably isn't helping their heat issues either given the exit point and the routing the manifold must use to exit.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Ducting is a quick fix. On the spot if need be, had it been the issue.

No, Im thinking 3one is right in saying if the rake is adjusted higher it will help them get a few bonus rear end down force points(at the expense of some drag no doubt).
If this entitles them to run the "MK III" wing as Ferraripilot says, I dont know. That was an awful lot of oversteer.

[3one]

Ducting is a quick fix. On the spot if need be, had it been the issue.

No, Im thinking 3one is right in saying if the rake is adjusted higher it will help them get a few bonus rear end down force points(at the expense of some drag no doubt).
If this entitles them to run the "MK III" wing as Ferraripilot says, I dont know. That was an awful lot of oversteer.

If they do increase rake which would increase rear DF which in turn lower their top speed due to drag, the question now is how much DF will they gain? If the car then starts understeering out of the corner then it means its time to switch to another front wing...

What i guess is they'll go with the MK II (with the rectangular holes open) if the DF increase is substantial... Expect them to be testing those on friday...

[bot6]

Sorting out the rear wing issue will be the first step in finally getting some rear downforce. I really don't understand why they are waiting for China to fix this. They have known about this problem for two race weekends now, they should be able to sort it.

[marcush.]

you got the mechanism in the wing end plates ...is this a two actuator layout?
this would inevitably create trouble....
Put an axle through the rearwing mainplane and levers left and right and again there is some potential for things jamming .
They had something like this in last years font wing methinks maybe they took a shortcut too much and carried over some of it?
The middle positioned actuator/lever is surely not as elegant but mechanically much easier and again lighter.
Maybe it´s taking too much time to find a majority in the design department in which direction to go...

[jav]

My understanding is that the rear wing problem is not mechanism related. The mechanism, actuator, controls and flap are moving correctly. What I believe is happening is that when the flap is returned to the full downforce position, air flow does not immediatly, repeatably or reliably re-attach to the main foil in certain conditions. My understanding is that the Merc design induces the best stall (and greatest drag reduction), but it's also one of the slowest at correcting the stall upon disengagement. I believe this is an aero problem- not a mechanism problem.

[ringo]

This short wheel base car is in need of more floor area. That's cheap downforce. Too bad they can't do anything about it now, unless they put a 100mm spacer flange between gearbox and engine.
I agree that the mid body and rear are questionable designs.

Though we may need some driver quotes to verify what the real issue is.

the car may well feel pretty good and balanced, without drs activation, but it just lacks total downforce.
When that is the case, then it's probably fine details as marcush suggested.
If it doesn't feel balance, when drs is not in use, then we can say there definitely is a problem with the front or rear.
The DRS and KERS is a compounded issue.

I was lambasting them last year for their low nose and bulky saftey cell; and it's good that they changed to a high nose and high cell, but the shape has to be questioned.





that kink under the nose looks suspicious. I'm not sure what it is doing, but it looks like the regulated nose area has to do with how they shaped it.
According to how the bottom of their safety cell naturally curves, the bottom of the nose would have been much lower. However they forced the nose to be close to the 550mm limit mark. This resulted in a higher degree curve that may not be taken too well by the air flow.
This looks to be affecting splitter down-force and side flow as well.

The car doesn't have many problems, i think, it just has a small amount of deep rooted problems. Luckily they seem repairable.