Fukushima Technical Discussion

[andrew]

I think going on from my post and Manchilds response (thanks! ) is that building a power station in an earthquake zone was a massive blunder, albeit at the time of it being built I suspect no one thought the unthinkable would happen. There is no getting round that any nuclear plant built an area which is subject to natural disasters is an accident waiting to happen (imagine the epicentre was beneath the plant!).

The containment of the fallout is physically impossible. Had this been an isolated incident then the effects of the fallout would probably have been less or contained quicker, but coupled with the clean-up of a massive earthquake it is just an impossible task. There must be so much contamination of not just the structure of the plant but the surrounding area, I imagine that this area will look like Chernobyl, only on a much bigger scale and will be uninhabitable for years.

The radioactive waste is as you say a huge problem, short of digging concrete lined pits there is very little that can be done. There is a 65 metre deep shaft at Dounreay on the north cost of Scotland, that was not meant to be used as a waste depository, which will be threatened by costal erosion in 300 years time. I heard something a while ago about empty oil/gas wells in the North Sea being used as an alternative to landfill. I wonder if something along similar lines can be used for radioactive material?

As for the terrorist threat, I am dubious about the true likihood of this. Sure there is a risk, but what is the real risk, and not the one fed to us by various organisations? Security would be paramount but on the plus side it would create jobs (small mercy I know).

I'll end this ramble by quoting a line from an excellent song which I guess is true. "Man kills everything" and from the same band, we live in a "Culture of Destruction". Never really thought of the true meaning of these but I guess they are bang on. Anyone else I can depress this evening?

However, US is already working on luring some with big bucks.

"U.S. Firm Recruits For Possible Work At Fukushima"

http://uk.ibtimes.com/articles/130364/2 ... ushima.htm

Suicide mission is all that is. But I guess with high unemployment then people are desperate for work. Workers being paid circa £2,000 a day is not much of a reward if you're going to die prematurely through radiation poisoning. I wonder what BNI are offering, both short and long term.

EDIT: spelling, yet again!!!

[andrew]

My thoughts exactly. Now they must wish they were communist country with plenty of clueless "volunteers" to do liquidators work for a medal and tin coffin.

You may write whatever you want but don't abuse, don't even touch the memory of those people who deliberately went to die in the name of the rest.
Because you don't know what you're talking about. And will never know through your pathetic life.
Those few words of yours, which are an offense to mankind and humanity are enough to negate all the rest of what you write.

Actually, what he wrote is pretty much bang-on for what happens where you have a government that is extremely secretive and controlling. The people are just tools for the ruling powers to use. They do as they are told and questioning their leaders is not tolerated. It is an ugly truth, but a truth none the less.

As you say in your post, you may write whatever you want, but please if you are going to tell someone that there opinion is rubbish, then back that claim up with your opinion. Otherwise your post is without meaning.

Apologies for the off topic rant but this post just really annoyed the bejesus out of me!

[forty-two]

Granted WB, the financial method is one yardstick, but in my opinion not a terribly satisfactory one.

For example, I doubt very much if Japan as a country or TEPCO as a company will be forking out compo for someone in the US or perhaps farther afeild who contracts thyroid cancer in the next 5 years. Maybe even if a causal link can be made.

Nor do I think that the true COST to a family for the loss of one of their number can ever be properly compensated. Without going into detail, If I were to suffer a fatal accident at work, the loss to my family would in my opinion be far greater than ANY amount of cash could ever completely compensate.

[Dragonfly]

Dear all,
with the exception of Andrew I don't know where you live.
Where I live is written under my avatar.
I have lived on the other side of the Iron Curtain and I am old enough to know much more about the realities here.
What you have been told is only a partial truth. Alongside the party leaders and the Nomenklatura there lived a lot more very fine ordinary people.
That's why I get angry reading propaganda cliches, the coin always has two sides.

I don't write much on this topic because I am not an expert. I only see that catastrophic consequences lead to a kind of a chain reaction (not the nuclear one) when every new action and measure to limit the damage and take control is negated by unforseen events. It's scaring. It means that no one could predict the scale of the consequences ofhaving a NPP in such a zone. As no one can predict what effect there will be if massive amounts of energy are taken from the winds.
Remember the coin.

Forgive me the off topic and please refrain from using politics and political stereotypes.

[manchild]

My thoughts exactly. Now they must wish they were communist country with plenty of clueless "volunteers" to do liquidators work for a medal and tin coffin.

You may write whatever you want but don't abuse, don't even touch the memory of those people who deliberately went to die in the name of the rest.
Because you don't know what you're talking about. And will never know through your pathetic life.
Those few words of yours, which are an offense to mankind and humanity are enough to negate all the rest of what you write.

*deleted my reply on part of your post written in anger*


You got it wrong (as few other pointed out). Liquidators in Chernobyl had no idea what they are being exposed to. They were just ordered to go there and do as they were told.

All they got was "thanks from the motherland" instantly on spot, the medals and tin coffins that followed afterwards. Compulsory army service and general fear of regime enabled all that.

No one knows exactly who all of the liquidators were. First ones who had to drop blocks directly into reactor were soldiers. Knowing how USSR functioned, I wouldn't be surprised if many of them sent afterwards to clean the spot and build the sarcophagus were prisoners, especially political ones.

So, I'm not insulting anyone but just mentioning how easy it was for a CP distributorship to get as many workers/soldiers as it needed, and to expose them to deadly radiation, unlike Japan that can only pay someone to do it (or lie about level of radiation).

The only thing I've done was finger-pointing in US and their idea that they can buy anything with money, even the liquidators. That including the rest of my post was pro-human, and anti-exploitation.

To sum it up, Chernobyl liquidators were indeed poor souls, that had no knowledge of what they are being exposed to, and even if they did, refusing order would mean facing the court-martial or even being shot on spot as an example to others.

I was born and grew up under Iron Curtain too, just like my parents, so I know how things worked. I was traveling on train, some 500 kilometers away from Chernobyl when it exploded.

----------------------------------------
BTW, andrew, tsunamis were known, much before this one, and much worse ones. It was just "It won't happen to us because we are prefect, since our emperor is God's relative bs" thinking that lead to this disaster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1883_eruption_of_Krakatoa

[Dragonfly]

OK. I removed my post.
And hope you also remove the <clueless "volunteers"> part of yours. Those people may have sacrificed their lives for empty ideology, but clueless they were not.
Also hope you realize that being overzealous in defense of your position produces opposite reaction.

[manchild]

Removed my anger to anger.

Clueless meant unaware of danger. They were drafted, ordered to be sacrificed, since they weren't volunteers aware of danger willingly getting into it. That's what I tried to explain.

Would you call these people heading to Chernobyl dressed up as if they are going into chocolate factory as aware of danger? I say they had no idea what they will be exposed to, and if they've known, than they certainly weren't volunteering.

[forty-two]

I think going on from my post and Manchilds response (thanks! ) is that building a power station in an earthquake zone was a massive blunder, albeit at the time of it being built I suspect no one thought the unthinkable would happen. There is no getting round that any nuclear plant built an area which is subject to natural disasters is an accident waiting to happen (imagine the epicentre was beneath the plant!).

The containment of the fallout is physically impossible. Had this been an isolated incident then the effects of the fallout would probably have been less or contained quicker, but coupled with the clean-up of a massive earthquake it is just an impossible task. There must be so much contamination of not just the structure of the plant but the surrounding area, I imagine that this area will look like Chernobyl, only on a much bigger scale and will be uninhabitable for years.

The radioactive waste is as you say a huge problem, short of digging concrete lined pits there is very little that can be done. There is a 65 metre deep shaft at Dounreay on the north cost of Scotland, that was not meant to be used as a waste depository, which will be threatened by costal erosion in 300 years time. I heard something a while ago about empty oil/gas wells in the North Sea being used as an alternative to landfill. I wonder if something along similar lines can be used for radioactive material?

As for the terrorist threat, I am dubious about the true likihood of this. Sure there is a risk, but what is the real risk, and not the one fed to us by various organisations? Security would be paramount but on the plus side it would create jobs (small mercy I know).

I'll end this ramble by quoting a line from an excellent song which I guess is true. "Man kills everything" and from the same band, we live in a "Culture of Destruction". Never really thought of the true meaning of these but I guess they are bang on. Anyone else I can depress this evening?

However, US is already working on luring some with big bucks.

"U.S. Firm Recruits For Possible Work At Fukushima"

http://uk.ibtimes.com/articles/130364/2 ... ushima.htm

Suicide mission is all that is. But I guess with high unemployment then people are desperate for work. Workers being paid circa £2,000 a day is not much of a reward if you're going to die prematurely through radiation poisoning. I wonder what BNI are offering, both short and long term.

EDIT: spelling, yet again!!!

Are you feeling alright Andrew? That's two posts in as many days where you've appeared rational and contemplative! hehe

Joking aside, one comment on your post if I may. RE the likelihood of a terrorist threat to a NPP. I imagine that prior to the event, folk would have been dubious at the idea that people might sacrifice their lives, and those of hundreds of passengers and innocent bystanders by flying Aeroplanes into the WTC and the Pentagon, and even worse, I expect the engineers who built the WTC never expected one of the towers be demolished, let alone both of them on the same day.

To bring it a little closer to home, I doubt many people would have expected a coordinated suicide bomb attack on London's transport network.

That's the very thing with risk assesment, especially where lots of peoples health/life is in play. You MUST expect the unexpected and plan for EVERY eventuality.

It is for this reason (and many others) that I don't think NPPs should be built anywhere on this planet. The risks are IMO way way too high.

[autogyro]

+1
I have experience of risk assesment in the RAF.
I also know what it would take to mount a terrorist attack on a nuclear reactor.
I can tell you Andrew and any others pro nuclear that the risks far outway any arguements in favour of nuclear power and nuclear waste storage.
Unfortunately even if nuclear reactors were shut strait away (which is not possible let alone sensible), there would still remain the major problem of the vulnerable nuclear waste. There is a huge cost to deal with this problem and it will have to be done sometime. I hope it will not be after a terrorist attack and the resulting disaster that could easily be worse than Japan.
With mainly scientificaly ignorant members in our government, the real risk is that they will work on just statistics and make the risk worse by cutting nuclear security and clean up investment. Short term politicians just do not have the long term responsibility to this issue and another way has to be found.
I have suggested an inexpensive full time aerial system to guard nuclear reactors in the UK.It is a proven system and the aircraft involved cost no more than a police patrol car. Unfortunately Lord Drayson was to busy racing motor cars to take much notice when I tried the idea on him and the government seems to only be interested in American 5 million pound gunships that only make one million pound holes in the desert. Norfolk is now borrowing the Suffolk police helicopter, because they can no longer afford their own, sad innit. I will be selling face masks at some stage.

[andrew]

forty-two - It's this temporary unemployment. It leads to rational thought!

I agree prior to the event no one wants to think about the unthinkable. Whilst a terrorist attack is always a possibility I still think the possibility is overplayed. I will admit that I subscribe to the view that the events of 11 September 2001 were, whilst being a terrible atrocity, were far too convenient considering what happened in the preceding years. I may be wrong, but we will probably never know.

I am not saying that there is not risk, but the reality is much likely to be less than we are led to believe, however assuming the terrorist threat is as we are led to believe, if someone wants to get hold of something then they will get it, no matter what preventative measures are used and what the risk assessments say. To date I don't think there has been a single terrorist related incident at a nuclear power plant, or at least I don't recall hearing about one.

At the moment I am still in favour of nuclear power, although disposal of radioactive waste is an ever increasing problem.

[mx_tifoso]

The main reason this thread was started and left open was because it was supposed to be a technical discussion about the Fukushima plant. Please keep the usual political/nucular banter out of it.

[forty-two]

Thank you gentlemen for your contributions to this thread, and as our esteemed moderator has stated, perhaps we should move this back to a technical discussion (incidentally, I accept partial liability for it not having been so up until now).

I do feel however that I for one have learnt important lessons by being a protagonist in this discussion, as I suspect some other members have?

Final off topic comment for the moment is to Andrew, I wish you the best of luck in securing alternative gainful employment in your field. Perhaps you could be surveying old NPPs and telling them where they're going wrong? (If my memory serves you are a building surveyor?)

With all the techincal ideas on this forum, there must be some bright spark who can come up with a workable solution to this particular issue. Here are the goals as I see it:

- Provide a containment structure which can enclose the fallout from the stricken reactor buildings, including their spent fuel pools
- Ensure that whichever containment is selected is able to also contain the decay heat produced
- Design the system such that excess heat can be thermally radiated without leaking any further radiation
- Make the system energy free, in other words, no powered cooling facility can be relied upon given the fragile tectonic nature of the area in question
- Make the system Earthquake proof, realistically up to a magnitude 11, such that containment cannot be compromised
- Make the system Tsunami proof such that no further incidents may damage the installation
- Ensure that ground seepage cannot become an issue
- Ensure that the containment may be maintained and monitored
- Ensure that the structure will last, without leakage for approximately ten half lives of the radionuclides which are present.

That seems like a big ask, but remember that guys on this very forum have managed to decipher literally mind-boggling engineering solutions in the past, often without any help other than someone's inklings.

I have great faith in you all!


I've never said this before, but...


PEACE!

[andrew]

Thanks forty-two, I'm sure something will turn up sooner or later as long as I keep throwing my hat into as many rings as possible.

Getting back to the topic, nuclear reprocessing may be an option. Interesting read here.

Other than that, underground repositories are really the only other option at the moment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_geological_repository

http://www.stuk.fi/ydinturvallisuus/ydi ... os/_print/

[manchild]

So, back to main technical issue to follow - Who will now do the dirty work in Fukushima - decontamination, sanation, cleaning, building of sarcophagus (if possible at all, yesterday they had another strong EQ).

USSR had remotely controlled machinery but it often failed under radiation and proved to be insufficient. Japan and countries that will provide help have most probably better machinery nowdays, more radiation-resistant, but still, it will take thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people just as it was necessary for sanation of Chernobyl to pack it up manually.

Humans on spot are indispensable, and to me it seams that this fact is just another problem without practical answer. Identical problem as it was "how to cool reactors when generators fail", "how to cool reactors when sea water starts leaking", "how to cool spent rods when pools are cracked and dried" etc.

None of this was thought over before the construction of any NPP in the world, including Fukushima.

All I can see as their way to pull it trough is to gradually keep serving polished news about situation, keep informing how radiation has dropped to acceptable level and than lure people from third world countries into quick big money job.

EDIT:

Quick gif to show my idea how the plant should be isolated.

5 slides gif.



high-res ver. http://www.imagebam.com/image/3b46a5127860744

1. As is now
2. Build embankment to be able to dry the nearby ocean floor.
3. Build a reinforced concrete wall to surround the the plant. This would be not just to protect sarcophagus from tsunami, but also to prevent winds from blowing particles from the site and to serve as giant pool in case new tsunami or leak if sarcophagus cracks.
4. Build 6 sarcophagus, 1 for each reactor, fill the pools with spent rods with concrete.
5. Flatten and seal the whole area within the wall to serve as pool's floor, and to prevent leakage trough the soil.

[forty-two]

Wierdly Manchild, I went to sleep last night pondering a sea wall enclosure along the lines of your diagram!

But it occurs to me that the only way they could ensure that no seepage occurs through the ground would be to dig down to the bedrock and build a retaining wall all around the site including the area immediately offshore from the plant, and even then this would only work if the bedrock is impermeable.

The next problem would be the enclosure. I am not too sure if you could actually fill up the existing reactor buildings with concrete, I think the heat being fed from below would cause the concrete to fail to properly cure, and you wouldn't want a cracked concrete casing!

Presumably, even if the concrete would ever properly cure, all that heat below it would result in an increase in pressure from within, which could lead to a pressure-cooker explosion?