Flexible wings 2011

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animax
animax
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Joined: 11 Apr 2011, 04:07

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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@malcolm

1) I know it's hard to believe that the front wing is pushing the air around the tires and not over them, but this is what it does and there is no drag penalty(Coanda effect).Here is interesting info that I found for Toyota MR-2 MR2 SW20 (90-96) aero parts.I know it's not a F1 car but description of spoilers is very interesting:
"Gracer Aero parts are the first point to receive airflow resistance; the design of the front spoiler determines the final handling of the vehicle. The Gracer front lip spoilers are designed to reduce airflow going beneath the vehicle and also direct air to critical areas such as the radiator and intercooler.While driving, air turbulence occurs around the front tire, this turbulence can disturb airflow all the way to the back of the vehicle were it can reduce the function of the rear spoiler, the Gracer side skirts is designed to smooth out the air turbulence towards the back of the vehicle, to achieve save handling of the vehicle."
Here is the picture of Toyota(http://skrci.me/zvlyY)).

2) Maybe this is also part of a story about RBR front wing.In 2010,FIA have outlawed the carbon fibre wheel fairings that became so popular in 2009.Ferrari have instead incorporated an integral aero device into the design of their wheel rim. The device is detachable, but to be legal it is made from the same material as the rim itself. Wheel rims have to be homologated and can't be changed during the season.The purpose of integral aero device go like this:
"Ferrari’s innovative rim design extracts hot air coming from brake components in such a way that effects less the outer cooler airflow towards the rear,decreasing vortexes and improving aero performance of the car.Rival teams had to deal wheel fairing ban by developing sophisticated front wing endplates to clean airflow around front wheels profile."
Now here is my speculation - because RBR couldn't create and homologate new front wheel rims with this integral aero device, in the middle of the 2010 season,they created bending front wing,who is reducing turbolent air behind the front tires by pushing the air around the tires for cleaner airflow.Today only Mclaren and Ferrari uses this integral aero device(http://skrci.me/GjbDX & http://skrci.me/pkQ0G),but not RBR (http://skrci.me/crHJY),because they have much better solution - bending front wing.

3) "just because a book is published doesn't mean it isn't crap" - True, but book is still a book and you have to read it, understand it and compare it with other similar books,if you want to declare it for a crap :-k .Here is a better picture,without comments(http://skrci.me/pGD5S).Besides take a look at Coanda effect and Bernoulli's Equation.This two rules are golden in F1 aerodynamic.

Maybe I'm using wrong words,when I say "pushing the air around the front tires" and instead I should say: "away from the center of the car".But then again the purpose is the same.They are not splitting the airflow like they do at Mclaren(http://skrci.me/orxrK).

malcolm
malcolm
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Joined: 28 Aug 2008, 16:45

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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No, I understand that the wing intends to push air around the tires, but that image indicates that it pushes it around the OUTSIDE of the tire, when it would otherwise pass between the tire and the chassis with no other impedance.

Image

The green arrow is where I think the air would go... the red arrow is where that image says the air would go (which is ridiculous).

Like I said before: "4) With the wider front wings, they are being used to help the air around the tire; however, that is not their sole use"... to add to that, moving the air around the tire is not even their primary use. They use it to make a LOT of downforce. Haven't you seen the chord of those wings? They're like a metre long!

animax
animax
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Joined: 11 Apr 2011, 04:07

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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I know that front wing has other functions too and that its biggest role is to produce as much downforce as possible .I even agree with the green arrow which is perfectly correct.The airflow is running between the top and middle element of the front wing. But like I said before. The top element is pushing the airflow towards the outer part of the car(or around the front tyre).Here is new picture from China http://skrci.me/rcGht.Isn't obvious?

Or,look at Coanda effect.Here is description for quick demonstration:"Get a small stream of water coming down from the sink,and then place the bottom of the spoon next to the stream.Dangle the spoon next to the stream coming from the tap,so it can swing back and forth a bit.It helps to attach a piece of tape at the handle end to act as a hinge. Move the spoon up to the edge of the stream so it barely touches. When you do the water will flow around the bowl of the spoon and off the bottom deflected to the side and the spoon will move into the stream.Spoon is actually being pulled towards the stream of water. Gases behave pretty much like liquids.".This effect indicates even why the front wing is bending.And believe me,there is just enough downforce as it is needed,the only difference is how the front wing directs the air flow.

Coanda effect:
http://www.ny.airnet.ne.jp/satoh/coanda7758.jpg

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HampusA
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Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 14:49

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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Lindz wrote:And just because some of you doubt what Malcolm and I have been on about... F1Technical's favorite resident blogger/insider has created a little video for visualization:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtmSgUwt ... e=youtu.be[/youtube]


Still don't think the rake has much to do with the front wing?



Edit: proper youtube link. Oops!
Have you ever taken a look at how high their front wing is when stationary compared to top speed? clearly not because then we would not hear this talk about rake.

All cars have rake, RBR has more then others but not by much. their wing is pretty damn high stationary. check the pictures and see for yourself.
The truth will come out...

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HampusA
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Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 14:49

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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malcolm wrote:No, I understand that the wing intends to push air around the tires, but that image indicates that it pushes it around the OUTSIDE of the tire, when it would otherwise pass between the tire and the chassis with no other impedance.

Image

The green arrow is where I think the air would go... the red arrow is where that image says the air would go (which is ridiculous).

Like I said before: "4) With the wider front wings, they are being used to help the air around the tire; however, that is not their sole use"... to add to that, moving the air around the tire is not even their primary use. They use it to make a LOT of downforce. Haven't you seen the chord of those wings? They're like a metre long!
I think you haven´t noticed the very ends of the latest front wings some teams use. Straight copy of RBR. they don´t direct airflow like that to the outside. that air there is being directed more straight.

Here´s the air being directed to the outside of the tire.
Image

The wings have a distinct path on where a certain amount of air will go. It´s like two walls that directs a small part of the air to the outside of the tire.

Example,
Image
The truth will come out...

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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They were adamant today that it was the rake that accentuated the wing.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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Rino
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Joined: 27 Jun 2010, 20:48

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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Image
Image

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Tim.Wright
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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part of the rake can also be due to the front heave spring being softer than the rear. That way you have a pitching response to the vertical downforce load.

Tim
Not the engineer at Force India

malcolm
malcolm
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Joined: 28 Aug 2008, 16:45

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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HampusA wrote:
I think you haven´t noticed the very ends of the latest front wings some teams use. Straight copy of RBR. they don´t direct airflow like that to the outside. that air there is being directed more straight.

Here´s the air being directed to the outside of the tire.
Image
OH! So that's what those curved endplates do. Geez. Had no idea.























Come on man. With the image posted by animax, it was inferring that the entire third flap redirects air around the outside of the tire. Obviously the endplates push air around the outside of the tire, as is painfully obviously to see by anyone that has ever stuck their hand out of a car window while in motion. :-P




Animax: Coanda effect? Seriously? How does that even fit into this discussion?

How does a flexible front wing have anything to do with pushing air around the tires? Because it flexes to perhaps two degrees from horizontal? Calculate the sine of two, and you'll see how close to zero the lateral effect would be.

Also, variations in the geometry of the third flap serve to change the effective chord profile of the wing. While that curved part may push the air over a tiny bit, again, it won't do much at all in terms of lateral air movement.

The angle of the image you posted is misleading. Look at these five images; there is no way you can claim that the upper element acts like some sort of giant scoop.

http://www.motorsport.com/#/all/photo/m ... id=1104501
http://www.motorsport.com/#/all/photo/m ... id=1103099
http://www.motorsport.com/#/all/photo/m ... id=1103071
http://www.motorsport.com/#/all/photo/m ... id=1103046
http://www.motorsport.com/#/all/photo/m ... id=1103531

It just looks to me like the flap reduces angle of attack and chord length as it approaches the inner tip, probably just to reduce wing-tip vortices.



Also, interesting pic of the nose, minus nose-cone and wing:
http://www.motorsport.com/#/all/photo/m ... id=1103030

(sorry, tried sneaking into the source code to get a URL for the image, to no avail).






Tim: That's what Lindz and I argued a few pages ago... though my reply was far less succinct! ;)

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SiLo
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Joined: 25 Jul 2010, 19:09

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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Rino wrote:Image
Well there you go. Both at the same point, pretty much doing the same speed and there is a huge difference in wing height.

Anyone still bleating that Mclaren have a flexi-wing also?
Felipe Baby!

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horse
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Joined: 23 Oct 2009, 17:53
Location: Bilbao, ES

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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Well, the centre section of the red bull is closer to the ground than the McLaren, as expected, and to me it looks like they have the same "bow" on the wing of both cars.

What's interesting is that the McLaren appears to have more rake on the wing than the Red Bull!

All caveats apply to this photograph, obviously. Wish we could get a photographer to release a burst. One thing I notice is that The RB is using the DRS.
Last edited by Giblet on 18 Apr 2011, 21:52, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed quoted picture.
"Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words." - Chuang Tzu

Richard
Richard
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Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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As horse said, the two wings seem to have the same amount of bowing/curvature. The difference in height is due to the rake of the RB putting the wing closer to the ground.

Also the DRS will reduce downforce at the rear, so teh rear will be higher as a result, hence the front lower.

chepoi
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Joined: 14 Jan 2004, 11:35
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Re: Flexible wings 2011

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Rino wrote:Image
RBR DRS on, McLaren DRS off.

astracrazy
astracrazy
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Joined: 04 Mar 2009, 16:04

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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says to me vettel braked quite a bit later

edit: actually i seem to remember Hamilton tried an undercut so he would have braked earlier any way

Richard
Richard
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Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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astracrazy wrote:says to me vettel braked quite a bit later
It only says that Vettel was behind Hamilton at the start of that manoeuvre - only the trailing car has DRS.