Flexible wings 2011

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animax
animax
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Joined: 11 Apr 2011, 04:07

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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@Malcolm

I'm really sorry for your headaches. :( This is my very first post on this forum:
(Mon Apr 11, 2011 - I think that the whole point of RBR front wing, is making the huge pressure on the smallest possible surface of the front wing.By that,the front wing can pass more demanding FIA test and it won't bend,couse it's only a small part who should be bending.I believe, that's why the last part of front wing is in the shape of a "spoon".With this shape,they can direct the air flow towards the outer part of the wing,where is creating huge amount of pressure,together with the air flow directed by the additional added elements at the end of the wing.That's why I believe,that RBR front wing is made in the same way as others.The only difference is the pressure distribution over the surface of the front wing.Mclaren on the other hand, is splitting the air flow on two parts, while Ferrari front wing is similiar to RBR,but not quite
. Now,how I think effects such as the Coanda work?Well, read my very first post again,or read my 2nd(Apr 13, 2011 - 46) ,3rd(Apr 15, 2011 - 47) or 4th(Apr 16, 2011 - 47) post.You'll see that I'm talking about directing the air flow,which is part of Coanda effect.


This is Force India front wing http://skrci.me/0tU9I.It's different approach to the same goal.

malcolm
malcolm
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Joined: 28 Aug 2008, 16:45

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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Haha, no worries. :)

The point I am getting at is that arguing about the Coanda effect versus Bernoulli or any other theorems doesn't really get us anywhere. The Coanda effect refers to any curve the flow sees, not just convex compound-curves. Basically, everyone in this entire thread is assuming the Coanda effect in every post they make. It's like trying to discuss something regarding the physics behind suspension, and someone constantly referring to the theory of gravity. Of course gravity has an effect, but it is a given and doesn't really apply to the discussion at hand.

If someone points to a fin and says it redirects air, we don't have to discuss what theory behind the mechanics of fluid flow is most applicable - we all agree that it'll move the air on both sides of the fin in one way or another - what we really want to discuss is *where* that air goes and how it affects other parts of the car in terms of downforce and drag.

Regarding the FI wing, I would suggest that they are attempting to generate a rather large vortex, rather than using that fin for any solely generating a significant lateral movement of air. Look at the proximity to the winglet, and then note the lack of endplate on that winglet (in your image, it is easier to see their relation on the side of the wing with no arrows). It essentially exaggerates or controls the wing-tip vortex, from what I can visualize. No idea why they'd want to do that, but perhaps that vortex gets cancelled by the tire, or somehow more effectively reroutes the air over the tire... that's something for CFD or a wind-tunnel to more concretely answer.

The part where I think you are confused is in using the top side of the wing for downforce, like a spoiler on a stock-car. Sure, pressure is increased, but that mostly just creates drag and very little downforce directly. The benefit is actually seen more in terms of increasing the effective angle of attack so the main plane of the wing can generate a lower pressure (by means of Coanda, etc, etc). Remember, going back to basics, that pressure exerts a force perpendicular to the surface... therefore, if you have a steeply angled surface, the pressure acting upon it will generate a force that is mostly horizontal, and almost zero in the vertical direction (therefore creating mostly drag). That is why you see big cut-outs or louvres on the end-plates to allow air to bypass the top of the upper flap... it dramatically reduces drag.

It's first and foremost a wing to directly produce downforce. It just also happens to be a handy mounting point for vortex generators and other little flaps and deflectors to help air around the tire and aim it at other stuff that will generate more downforce or away from stuff to reduce drag. The endplate has now become a major tool for air redirection around the tire, whereas the inner part of the wing still produces mostly downforce, but the inner part also needs to be well designed as not to ruin the flow to the rest of the car.

This is why the RB7 has that pointed, curved inner wing-tip on the upper flap, and why Force India has complicated fins either acting as a VG or vortex-controller of some sort... they want to make as much downforce as possible without making the airflow to the rest of the car a huge mess.

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ringo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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The floor doesn't have to bend to put the wing into the ground.
The car just has to rotate about a certain point longitudinally. The suspension geometry and the center of pressure can determine that.
For Sure!!

malcolm
malcolm
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Joined: 28 Aug 2008, 16:45

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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ringo wrote:The floor doesn't have to bend to put the wing into the ground.
The car just has to rotate about a certain point longitudinally. The suspension geometry and the center of pressure can determine that.
True, but I was referring to this image... if the splitter gives way, the entire car can be lower while maintaining the same rake, thus bringing the front wing closer to the ground.

Image

Obviously you can still put the wing into the ground without doing that, but then you'd have to have the rear end that much higher.

Jus' sayin'.

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djos
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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You guy's have it all wrong, this photo proves conclusivly that it is a function of Rake angle and rear ride height and there are no bendy T-tray's involved in the RB7:

RB7 rake
Last edited by djos on 21 Apr 2011, 06:04, edited 2 times in total.
"In downforce we trust"

malcolm
malcolm
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Joined: 28 Aug 2008, 16:45

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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Can't see the pic. :(

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djos
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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malcolm wrote:Can't see the pic. :(
Try the new link?
"In downforce we trust"

malcolm
malcolm
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Joined: 28 Aug 2008, 16:45

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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Definitely lots of rake. Inconclusive on the flexible splitter.

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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djos wrote:You guy's have it all wrong, this photo proves conclusivly that it is a function of Rake angle and rear ride height and there are no bendy T-tray's involved in the RB7:

RB7 rake
thats a very good pic

the rake is enormous ,right -but look at the front wing!it´s high! so :the rake is there even at low speed and the car is unusually high at the rear compared to everyone else...
To play further on this:The rear keeps it´s height with rising speed at RedBull so the one thing that lowers is the friont rideheight.the svivel point is effectively the rear axle...so lowering the car at the front axle reduces front wing height by a factor of Wheelbase plus front overhang/wheelbase not a big leverage.
Asuming the front rideheight in the splitter area is ,say 20mm with no downforce
you get some 23mm of lowering at the wingleading edge? forget that theory.
You cannot get the wing down that distance with non bendy bits or at the very least a bowed floor -fixed bow or bendy bow remains to be calculated...

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djos
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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marcush. wrote:
djos wrote:You guy's have it all wrong, this photo proves conclusivly that it is a function of Rake angle and rear ride height and there are no bendy T-tray's involved in the RB7:

RB7 rake
thats a very good pic

the rake is enormous ,right -but look at the front wing!it´s high! so :the rake is there even at low speed and the car is unusually high at the rear compared to everyone else...
To play further on this:The rear keeps it´s height with rising speed at RedBull so the one thing that lowers is the friont rideheight.the svivel point is effectively the rear axle...so lowering the car at the front axle reduces front wing height by a factor of Wheelbase plus front overhang/wheelbase not a big leverage.
Asuming the front rideheight in the splitter area is ,say 20mm with no downforce
you get some 23mm of lowering at the wingleading edge? forget that theory.
You cannot get the wing down that distance with non bendy bits or at the very least a bowed floor -fixed bow or bendy bow remains to be calculated...
imo most of the pics showing "evidence" of flexi-wings this year are taken under braking and everyone knows the RB7 has a softer suspension setting than than most others so there is likely to be some dive making the front wing look even lower.

also we dont know how fast the RB7 was traveling in this shot, I would suggest that if traveling close to vmax then the wing will be lower due to higher DF pushing it down towards the ground which the rake and soft suspension allows it to do.
"In downforce we trust"

Jonsson
Jonsson
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Joined: 14 Jun 2010, 18:04
Location: USA

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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Actually, the footage at the top of this thread shows the wing at its lowest when the load is highest, at top speed. You notice the wing flexing back up under braking, when downforce is reduced.

I think Red Bull is still using flexible carbon fiber via loose weave, but one that still passes the FIA load tests. I know it's difficult to perfect, but RBR has had since Hungaroring last year to perfect it.

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ringo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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marcush. wrote:
djos wrote:You guy's have it all wrong, this photo proves conclusivly that it is a function of Rake angle and rear ride height and there are no bendy T-tray's involved in the RB7:

RB7 rake
thats a very good pic

the rake is enormous ,right -but look at the front wing!it´s high! so :the rake is there even at low speed and the car is unusually high at the rear compared to everyone else...
To play further on this:The rear keeps it´s height with rising speed at RedBull so the one thing that lowers is the friont rideheight.the svivel point is effectively the rear axle...so lowering the car at the front axle reduces front wing height by a factor of Wheelbase plus front overhang/wheelbase not a big leverage.
Asuming the front rideheight in the splitter area is ,say 20mm with no downforce
you get some 23mm of lowering at the wingleading edge? forget that theory.
You cannot get the wing down that distance with non bendy bits or at the very least a bowed floor -fixed bow or bendy bow remains to be calculated...
Ahh!! that's the key point. The center of rotation doesn't have to be the rear.
The suspesion geometry and stiffness can determine it. I think the car is rotating about the splitter.
If the relative motion is about the splitter, the splitter doesn't have to move much.

I think the wing doesn't bend until it is pushed down into a certain region. The rake does half the job of getting the wing down, then the ground effect does the rest of the job and overload the wings, which i suspect bend non linearly but way above the value that is tested.
For Sure!!

tok-tokkie
tok-tokkie
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Joined: 08 Jun 2009, 16:21
Location: Cape Town

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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In the Long Control Arms thread this diagram was posted. I have no contribution to make but it might be relevant to the current discussion.

Image

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Tim.Wright
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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Classical roll/pitch centre theory is not valid for vertical input loads (i.e. downforce). Only horizontal.

In fact, even for horizontal loads they don't work but thats another story.
Not the engineer at Force India

marekk
marekk
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Joined: 12 Feb 2011, 00:29

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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ringo wrote: Ahh!! that's the key point. The center of rotation doesn't have to be the rear.
The suspesion geometry and stiffness can determine it. I think the car is rotating about the splitter.
If the relative motion is about the splitter, the splitter doesn't have to move much.
You mean with more speed rear goes up and front goes down, rotation axis being around the splitter ?

The only way it can work this way will be when rear downforce level is reduced with more front-induced rake (begin of diff/rear wings stall ?) - theoretically possible, but this will result in big balance shift IMO.