Concept 50 / 50 split between technology and driver skill

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F1 romantic
F1 romantic
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Joined: 03 Apr 2006, 20:36

Concept 50 / 50 split between technology and driver skill

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Australian Grand Prix: a brief example of a balance between driver skill and technology .
In F1 there is a need 50 / 50 split between technology and driver skill( the two work as one and both the car and driver are stars on equal footing). The recent Australian Grand Prix showed us a brief excellent example of how exiting racing can be if there is that balance. I must agree that the safety car was on the track too many times (but for track workers safety it’s a true necessity). The very Interesting part of the race was the restarts and which some drivers performed well with cold tires and some drivers performed extremely very poor. In Australia the high tech solutions of the F1 cars could not step in fast enough and the cream of the drivers rose to the top on those restarts. Under current regulations sometime it is difficult to tell who is a top driver and who is aided by computers to make him look like a hero.
The solution is to find a mix of technology and simplicity so we can appreciate both driver’s skills and technological advancement. The following is two simple changes that would reduce the cost of F1 and could give us that balance.
The first technology that needs to be revised (and brings back the simplicity) is the drive by wire to the throttle. A hard cable from the throttle to the butterfly valves has the potential to stop all the excessive driver aides. The true skill is in the driver’s ability to control steering and their feet co-ordination. The true potential of a great car is its ability to give great feedback so the driver senses the infinitesimal changes and the two acts as one.
The second change is the excessive aerodynamic down force. The wind tunnel budgets and the amount of testing have achieved the F1 community the cost effective ratio of an organization as NASA. Wings front and back need to be set to a spec that allows the teams plenty of room for advertising but made very flat with little air disturbance and reduced down force this would bring the mechanical grip to the leading edge of development. The diffuser should be banned and replaced with a spec rear extended bargeboard the same height as the front wings. This would allow for minor contact (with minor damage) and again reduced research cost in the wind tunnel.
These simple changes would reduce the wind tunnel testing cost and reduce the down force. This would still allow for technology growth in engines, braking, transmissions, electronics, and suspensions. It would bring racecar /driver balance to the front of team objectives and still allow for manufactures to develop technology to preserve the high tech image.

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vyselegend
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Re: Concept 50 / 50 split between technology and driver skil

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F1 romantic wrote: Wings front and back need to be set to a spec that allows the teams plenty of room for advertising but made very flat with little air disturbance and reduced down force this would bring the mechanical grip to the leading edge of development. The diffuser should be banned and replaced with a spec rear extended bargeboard the same height as the front wings.
Reducing aero downforce by decreasing the wings attack angle AND ban diffusers is too much!!! I think you're overestimating mechanical grip potential. Of the initial cornering ability, what will be left if you ban diffuser and downgrade wings angle?!

F1 romantic
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3-4 g intial mechanical grip exists today

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vyselegend

No disrespect but top fuel cars in the US launch off the line around 3 to 4 G's of mechanical grip. Obviously it is in one dirrection but with some creative engineering I believe cornering forces of 2-2.5 g's is possible with the right tires, right setup and some downforce. This would then put more skill into the driver and make for better races.

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vyselegend
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yeah no disrespect here too, of course.
Tell me, what is the weight of the US cars you talk about? I'm sure they're more than a ton heavy. As you said, the enormous grip obtained is in one direction (traction), and I'm sure a great part of it is due to the weight (natural mass, no downforce involved) pushing on the rear tires. With formula one cars about 600 kg, it would not be so easy. But I admit I totally lack serious knowlege here, so I'd be happy if someone more experimented can explain all requirements for maximum mechanical grip (including cornering).

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Figlio_del_Diavolo
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The enormous mechanical grip that NHRA Top Fuel dragsters have is dependant on the huge wrinkle-wall slicks that they use and the extreme weight distribution front to rear.
"Some people will tell you that slow is good - and it may be, on some days - but I am here to tell you that fast is better." - Hunter S. Thompson

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Sawtooth-spike
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Joined: 28 Jan 2005, 15:33
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but the more the FIA remove front and rear end grip, the more they add flip ups and stuff like that, this makes the cars unable to deal with turbulant air, thus making overtaking very difficult. think they should allow more front and back wing, but Remove the flip up thus allowing the car to deal with turbulance better, thus allowing more slip streaming and over taking.
I believe in the chain of command, Its the chain I use to beat you till you do what i want!!!

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Figlio_del_Diavolo
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vyselegend, in case you were interested here is a link telling some basis things about Top Fuel class dragsters:

http://www.topfueltour.com/english/teknik.htm#bromsar
"Some people will tell you that slow is good - and it may be, on some days - but I am here to tell you that fast is better." - Hunter S. Thompson

zac510
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I visit a few different F1 forums and see this kinda stuff every couple of days. Some person who thinks they have the 'miracle' solution for F1. Usually it is just a bit of uneducated oversimplified drivel pushing the agenda that the poster wants to make.

I won't even consider a cable operated throttle snapping closed on a 750hp 20000rpm V8.

If the Australian race was so good for the reasons you stated, why does the formula need changing at all?

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vyselegend
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Figlio_del_Diavolo wrote:vyselegend, in case you were interested here is a link telling some basis things about Top Fuel class dragsters:

http://www.topfueltour.com/english/teknik.htm#bromsar
Thanks. Very interesting. So the main explication is in those rear 18 inches wheels... (3 meters peripheral :shock: ). It's stunning that the front wheels can keep contact with the ground with that shape. Is there something inside the front part that can put a little push here, because judging by the look, it seems all the weight is on the rear. (battery, gas tank...)

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Figlio_del_Diavolo
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Many people want to be the 'savior' of F1, unfortunately many of them do not truly understand all the complexities involved just like you said zac510. I def agree with the last statement you made as well.
"Some people will tell you that slow is good - and it may be, on some days - but I am here to tell you that fast is better." - Hunter S. Thompson

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Figlio_del_Diavolo
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vyselegend wrote:Thanks. Very interesting. So the main explication is in those rear 18 inches wheels... (3 meters peripheral :shock: ). It's stunning that the front wheels can keep contact with the ground with that shape. Is there something inside the front part that can put a little push here, because judging by the look, it seems all the weight is on the rear. (battery, gas tank...)
The largest factor with the rear tires is that there are no belts regular radial tires have. The side of the tire is soft to make it possible for it to twist in the starting moment.

As for the front wheels, they are not in contact with the ground for much of the run and act more as rudders than as wheels. They want all that weight back there for the best possible traction. That weight combined with the wrinkle-wall slicks and rear downforce provided by the wing and exhausts (about 800 pounds of downforce from the exhausts!) allows these 'cars' to finish a 1/4 mile in less than 4.5 seconds at speeds in excess of 330 mph.
"Some people will tell you that slow is good - and it may be, on some days - but I am here to tell you that fast is better." - Hunter S. Thompson

DaveKillens
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Romatic, I agree with you in principle. I would like to see less electronic driver's aids, and less reliance on aero. A simple cable from driver's foot to throttle linage is both simple and reliable. The chance of failure is probably a lot less than the electronics making the wrong command to the engine management system.
As far as aero, it really doesn't apply much in the real world of manufacturers apart from low drag high mileage scenarios. I proposed before a simple rule, that the cars have to be aero neutral, with a very simple test to determine zero lift and/or downforce at speed. Just drop in very soft shocks and springs, tow it behind another vehicle and make sure there is zero change in ride height at speed. Voila, no aero downforce to deal wth, just driver skill, and mechanical tire grip.
But in the harsh realities of big money racing, you need lots of sexy performance, something that right now includes wings. A non-aero dependant car is nice from the purist's perspective, but it doesn't draw in the great mass of fans and spectators, or add to the unique appeal of F1.
When talking about top fuel dragsters launching with such acceleration, it has to be pointed out that they are the absolute optimum for acceleration. The weight distribution is set up purely for acceleration, and delivering 100% of the car mass to the rear wheels, at the correct center of gravity. The engine delivers insane power and torque, yet it is metered out by a slipping clutch set up to allow optimum torque each foot of the distance the dragster travels. Tires are very special compound and construction, and well heated for optimal grip. In fact, even the track surafce is treated, it most definitely is not bare concrete or ashpalt. Every aspect, every inch, every gram is designed and set up to take advantage of all practical and theoretical aspects of acceleration. A top fuel dragster is as single minded and dedicated piece of machinery as one can think of. It does only one thing, and what it does is incredible. It can't corner, it's braking ability is one shot, and only there for safety. It's unreliable, hard to start, VERY expensive for each foot travelled, and has a lifetime measured in about six seconds.
Meanwhile, a road race car like a Formula One race, even though exotic and expensive, is a design compromise. It has to last a few hundred kilometers, brake and corner well, and deal with a road surface that, like last week, is used for regular traffic. For every compromise you have to include, you have to surrender that dragster performance.

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flynfrog
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006, 22:31

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What about forget limiting the cars make teh track be teh rule if you want to limit grip make the surface slicker

if you want to reduce areo make teh track bumpy demaneding a higher ride heigth

maybe off camber corner that rely on the areo grip but no use of the mech grip ect

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Scuderia_Russ
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Who's paying for all of this and how is it going to affect other races on these circuits Mr. Frog?

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flynfrog
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im not suggesting they do this any time soon but speaking fomr my back ground in motocross racing a great way to slow down fast cars is a bumpy track



think of it though open rule book there could even bee grates installed to disrupt the areo

and yes i know nobody will pay for it but its a differnt take on how to change the rules who says we have to change the cars