Overtaking in F1 and what it should not be

[bhall]

And I would point to what you mentioned earlier in the thread about the fact that either 65% of the overtakes, or 65 overtakes total, in China happened without the benefit of DRS as evidence that DRS is unnecessary. The Pirelli tires - which are the same for everyone and every team is free to use them within the rules how they see fit - have thus far proved to be such such a wild card for the teams that DRS has only made for gratuitous overtaking.

[Ogami musashi]

And I would point to what you mentioned earlier in the thread about the fact that either 65% of the overtakes, or 65 overtakes total, in China happened without the benefit of DRS as evidence that DRS is unnecessary.

The second DRS goal was to allow the car to be closer to the leading one in order to attemp an overtaking move after the DRS zone, so the fact the 65% of the overtakes were done outside the DRS zone doesn't imply the DRS in unnecessary quite the opposite it strongly suggests the DRS helped the cars begin closer to each other (but tyres could and surely did play a role in it too).

[Pandamasque]

Don't you have to already BE within the overtaking distance (less than 1 sec) to use DRS?

[Mr Alcatraz]

I could hit a baseball a helluva lot further without that pesky wind resistance getting in the way. It's fair for me to ask for a ball that somehow lessens the impact of air?

I think they tried that concept with golf balls. Seems to have worked, last I checked! And no one complained, either. Well...maybe they did, I wasn't around when the dimpled ball was created and neither were internet forums.

Bad thing comparing golf with baseball.
For starters pitchers would complain. The design of the raised seams on a baseball use wind resistance to effectively throw knuckle-balls, sliders, slerves, curveballs, screwballs, two-seam fastballs, four seam fastballs, cut fastballs sinkers, the knuckle curve ball, fork balls (also referred to as a split-fingered fast ball),[Edit: not having seams would]even ruin the effectiveness of a straight change up. The lack of these pitches "breaking", and lxck of the deceptiveness of the rapid rotation of certain types of change ups would remove another of the pitchers tools.
Along with the enormously longer distance a golf ball would carry, and it’s increased velocity after being struck, would seriously put the infielders, including the pitcher in peril of catastrophic injury, being compounded by the visual disadvantage of having to “pick up" (acquire visually) a batted ball about 1/3 to ¼ the size of a regulation baseball, which is already compounded by the movement of the bat. This would easily outweigh the disadvantage of batters having to strike a ball with the decreased circumference of a golf ball, to say nothing of the objection of the purest fans that would completely reject the game.

You see, you spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball, and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time.
~Jim Bouton, Ball Four, 1970

[Maidel]

I simply don't understand why some people don't understand this.

With 'normal' racing the car behind will receive a massive 'tow' from the car in front as it punches a whole in the air for it to follow. In f1 with all the aero bits that have been shoehorned onto the car this toe is negated as the car behind loses downforce when it needs it most. In other racing series that don't use wings in the same way this is not an issue as it doesn't affect mechanical grip.

Therefore the drs returns the advantage to the overtaking car, something that has been lost in the last 20 years as aero devices have become more and more important. There is nothing unfair about this in anyway, it is correcting the last 20 years.

[Mr Alcatraz]

I simply don't understand why some people don't understand this.

With 'normal' racing the car behind will receive a massive 'tow' from the car in front as it punches a whole in the air for it to follow. In f1 with all the aero bits that have been shoehorned onto the car this toe is negated as the car behind loses downforce when it needs it most. In other racing series that don't use wings in the same way this is not an issue as it doesn't affect mechanical grip.

Therefore the drs returns the advantage to the overtaking car, something that has been lost in the last 20 years as aero devices have become more and more important. There is nothing unfair about this in anyway, it is correcting the last 20 years.

Most of the objections are not based on the understanding of how tow, disrupted air, and reduced down force affects passing.
Many believe that the current tire wear, and KERS have increased passing enough. Personally, (as I explained earlier) I believe the lead car that is there on merit stands a unnecessary risk of overdriving his tires out of the last turn before the DRS zone in order to maintain/achieve a lead of + one seconds which he may or may not know if he has, further compromising his race. Conversely if the pilot accepts the fact that being passed is a better strategy than the risks of possibly unduly wearing his tires trying to maintain a +one second advantage means to me that the pilot being passed has to accept that unless he makes a significant mistake on the ensuing lap, he will be content to re-pass on the next run through the DRS zone thus creating processional alternating passes. That is a realistic possibility, although unlikely.
I'm not completely against DRS, but I do not think it is the holy grail of F1 equity in racing in its current form. If a driver makes a pass and is not able to pull away properly using these very rapidly degrading tires, to me that is worse than useless.
It is in the rules of the competition (that changes its rules far too often IMO) this season, so we are going to see if it is prudent, or imprudent. It’s really is not that big of a deal in a competition that has no interest in having any kind of continuity in regard to its legacy.

I'm sure we will here a certain proportion of pilots praising it. Unfortunately I believe too many fans base their opinions on such matters, if it is their hero that is giving the praise.

[Ciro Pabón]

I simply don't understand why some people don't understand this...

I don't understand why you don't understand why some people don't understand this. It is understandable.

Just look at Tazio last post. He doesn't understand his own posts, as the repeated question mark shows.

However, I agree with you, Maidel. DRS rules! Long live DRS! All hail your new DRS masters! Bring forth your newborns and offer them in sacrifice, it is the least you can do.

Those of you that persist in heresy and still try to make the point of Pirellis degrading and the such will be dealt with appropriately... and unmercifully.

For starters, we might force you, DRS atheists, to watch reruns of A1 GP.

However, our menace doesn't stop there. We can do worse. We might even force you to watch rally races. We can (pause for suspense)... force you to watch the EVIL Formula One. You know, the one invented in Bizarro World, where the F1 cars run the race independently (like rally cars do) so they do not interfere with each other. Talk about lack of overtaking! Mwahahahaha.

My solution to excessive overtaking: all cars depart two laps after the previous one and you install permanent blue flags, fixed to the lampposts, at every straight. The beauty of it is that regulations impede overtaking!

This is not a train, is a regular race, as it should be (according to F1Tech Editorials)


Do you know what I like more, Maidel? Now, people HAS to watch the entire race, because someone might overtake... and they thought life would be easier as they got older. It doesn't.

Internet five!

[PlatinumZealot]

And I would point to what you mentioned earlier in the thread about the fact that either 65% of the overtakes, or 65 overtakes total, in China happened without the benefit of DRS as evidence that DRS is unnecessary. The Pirelli tires - which are the same for everyone and every team is free to use them within the rules how they see fit - have thus far proved to be such such a wild card for the teams that DRS has only made for gratuitous overtaking.

I don't agree fully, but If the DRS + KERS + Pirrelli formua is working so wonderfully why change it?

[bhall]

Integrity.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Integrity.

Cue violins.

Iam afraid purists will never see the benefits of DRS because its too much of a shift away from the old, they are loathe to change.
You see the beauty of the mechanism, repeated many many times on this thread, is that the car behind has to be within one second of the car in front.

As they follow in dirty air, to be within one second is ample demonstration that they should be given some kind of assist for an overtake that would never have happened before for the simple fact that the car in front has the advantage of using the air in front of it first

We saw slower car defend against faster cars using DRS. So its not a gimme by any means. In the end, the faster driver/car will be more likely to overtake, and AMEN TO THAT!

[andrew]

Integrity.

Agreed, the whole spectacle has been cheapened.

[PlatinumZealot]

Not IMO..nature has shown that the best aerodynamics are moveable aerodynamics - look on all the flying and swimming animals of the earth. As mankind gets more advanced we will be able to fully control form changing aerodynamics and I think the DRS is step further to reaching that. I know moveable aero is not anything new (planes, Bugatti Veyron, helicopters etc) but within competition we will see the technology blossom. Who knows where it can take us? Moveable side-pods and diffusers?

[bhall]

I'm all for change, especially when it stems from innovation. Formula 1, indeed humanity, would be nowhere without it. But, sometimes I even like change for the sake of change. If the powers that be ever decided to increase horsepower in Formula 1 by using actual horses, I'd be on board in a heartbeat as long as it was uniformly implemented.

The concept of DRS, by its very definition, is not uniform in its implementation. That's why I don't like it.

[Maidel]

It is completely uniform in it's implementation. All cars have access to it when they are in a position to overtake.

For the second time, the leading driver already has this massive advantage of having 'clean air'. Why do you think the commentators bang on and on about overtaking cars having to drive in the 'dirty air'. The car in front has effectively a HUGE wind break that slows the car behind down. Overtaking used to be either - very fast cars on very slow cars, very daring drivers who 50% of the time took out both cars or by waiting for the driver in front to make a mistake.

Finally, there is something that negates the 'dirty air' and allows a faster car to pass a slower car in certain circumstances. It's not an instant overtake button, it doesn't cheapen the sport, it doesn't lose the sports integrity because ALL drivers can use it to overtake. If you are on pole and finish the race first, well you didnt need it. This foes not mean you have been cheated out of using it, just that you didn't need to. If it were only given to some if the teams, well THEN you would have a point.

[Pandamasque]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bly2q54aojk[/youtube]

It is completely uniform in it's implementation. All cars have access to it when they are in a position to overtake.

For the second time, the leading driver already has this massive advantage of having 'clean air'. Why do you think the commentators bang on and on about overtaking cars having to drive in the 'dirty air'. The car in front has effectively a HUGE wind break that slows the car behind down. Overtaking used to be either - very fast cars on very slow cars, very daring drivers who 50% of the time took out both cars or by waiting for the driver in front to make a mistake.

Finally, there is something that negates the 'dirty air' and allows a faster car to pass a slower car in certain circumstances. It's not an instant overtake button, it doesn't cheapen the sport, it doesn't lose the sports integrity because ALL drivers can use it to overtake. If you are on pole and finish the race first, well you didnt need it. This foes not mean you have been cheated out of using it, just that you didn't need to. If it were only given to some if the teams, well THEN you would have a point.

That is nonsense. DRS is designed to work on the straights. That's exactly where the following car has an advantage of the dirty air. It's called the slipstream.

DRS is the same if FIFA or UEFA changed the football rules, so that the players could use hands, but only on the opponent's side of the pitch, so that the attacking team would get an advantage, artificially invented to achieve overall higher scores.