Overtaking in F1 and what it should not be

[Giblet]

Anything can happen. It is true that it didn't magically open on it's own, but the signal coming from Alonso's car could have been corrupted, there could have been a software error on the FIA side, there could also be a bug in the MECU. The button Alonso pushes may have had a problem. Alonso likely did press the button, but it within the realm of possibility that he didn't.

Point is that nobody know's equivocally what happened, unless you know something we don't.

A lot of it depends on how the system works. Is the car sitting there in listen mode, waiting for the FIA to change a flag from 0 to 1? Is the car always aware if it is in the zone or not? Does the FIA send just one flag saying it's time when the zone starts, or does it also send one when the zone ends? How the logic works would be the piece of knowledge you would need to know he pushed it. Every time that the driver pushes the button, does it check with the FIA system to see if it is ok, or does the car already know that it is in the zone? How much of this logic takes place in the ECU, and how much in the FIA system?

[Mr Alcatraz]

Tazio I think you missed my point again. All I was stating was that Alonso's DRS opened where it did because he pushed the button - which normally wouldn't work during the race except the FIA system to disable it failed. It DID NOT magically open on it's own, are we clear? Now I AM NOT blaming Alonso for this, the error is clearly the FIAs and frankly my dear I don't give a damn. What I do wan't to make clear is in the future such a failure will not cause the rear wing to suddenly open in an area on the circuit that might be unsafe to see such a thing happen, because ultimately the system is still under the control of the driver.

So are you saying that if the button is pushed outside the drs zone during the race it will open?
Does it contravene a rule if the button is engaged outside the drs zone during the race?
I'm a little unclear on the whole shooting match. Surely you wouldn't be penalized if it was accidently touched with enough force outside the DRS zone to open it in the DRS zone, would you?
Or is it like a switch on one of those regulators that they have on IV pain medication that allows the patient to call for a release of morphine, yet only allows a certain amount of dope within a set period of time to be sure to keep a patient from O D ing. I remember when my mother had very serious surgery and was hooked up to one of those rigs, the nurse told me that in a period of time that would allow 3 releases of the medicine my mother pressed it over 700 times She wasn’t ultimately responsible for this mechanism.
It's not that I missed the point, I'm questioning if it is a relevant one. IMO if it is not illegal to press this button whenever you want than your point is completely irrelevant to me. And I would disagree that it is the pilot that is ultimately responsible for this apparatus to function properly unless it is specified in the rules.
I would just like this cleared up for me, because I'm a little confused about the issue.

[Richard]

Perhaps the driver pushes the button as they approach the DRS zone to tell the software to activate DRS as soon as it is available for the whole of the zone.

I can't imagine they'd want to hold the button all the time while trying to control the wheel as they try to make the pass, especially if there is a wheel to wheel battle.

[Mr Alcatraz]

Perhaps the driver pushes the button as they approach the DRS zone to tell the software to activate DRS as soon as it is available for the whole of the zone.

I can't imagine they'd want to hold the button all the time while trying to control the wheel as they try to make the pass, especially if there is a wheel to wheel battle.

I think they engage once, quite possibly in the memory before they are actually in the zone (although that is just a guess) in the race, and get out of it by touching the brake in the zone (That crazy priest that ran out onto Silverstone is due to show up again and could get someone killed in the zone) or it disengages as you exit it, if you have not already hit your brakes.

[nipo]

A lot of it depends on how the system works. Is the car sitting there in listen mode, waiting for the FIA to change a flag from 0 to 1? Is the car always aware if it is in the zone or not? Does the FIA send just one flag saying it's time when the zone starts, or does it also send one when the zone ends? How the logic works would be the piece of knowledge you would need to know he pushed it. Every time that the driver pushes the button, does it check with the FIA system to see if it is ok, or does the car already know that it is in the zone? How much of this logic takes place in the ECU, and how much in the FIA system?

On TV I noticed that the onboard view (complete with Revs/Gears/G-Force etc.) shows you if the car is DRS-enabled. The "DRS" graphic lights up in green once the driver is in the zone and eligible to use it. An additional yellow boundary is put on the graphic once the driver applies the DRS with his button.

If my observation above is correct then the educated guess will be that FIA sends a signal to the car telling it "you can use DRS now", similar to the way the signal is sent to the TV live feed. Following this logic I would also guess that an end-of-zone signal is sent to the car as well.

For safety there's maybe a time / distance limit onboard of the cars to disable DRS automatically if the end-of-zone signal hasn't arrived. This would probably have a little bit of allowance (cos it's just a fallback measure), and the limit would need to be programmed each race cos of the difference in DRS zones.

[n_anirudh]

The DRS is deactivated when the driver brakes for the corner..

The tires themselves have caused enough excitement so far...I doubt if there was a need for DRS at all..

Having said that, would we see any circuit where DRS can be deployed twice on a single lap?

[Mr Alcatraz]

The DRS is deactivated when the driver brakes for the corner..

The tires themselves have caused enough excitement so far...I doubt if there was a need for DRS at all..

Having said that, would we see any circuit where DRS can be deployed twice on a single lap?

I could see it.
The second zone can only be engaged by a pilot that failed in his attempt in the first zone. The second one (preferably on a downhill slope) will have the option of engaging an otherwise unattainable 8th gear. I envision it at Spa run in reverse. The Kimmel straight could be the DRS zone. If the pass is not completed there, you could have another go between La Source and the Eau Rouge/Raidillon complex They could call it the IRS (I'm really serious) zone.

[smellybeard]

Easiest way to sort out this DRS and assorted gimmick formula is to decide on the championship at the beginning of the season and get some good scriptwriters to dress it all up as racing. It would be just as valid as what we have and be much better television.

[i70q7m7ghw]

OKAY!

FROM A SAFETY POINT OF VIEW.

It is not possible for a rear wing to open mid corner on it's own due to any kind of failure. Simple. The driver has to activate the system manually, regardless of what the FIA system is doing.

Lets make it simple for the simple folk around here. Just think of it as the light bulb in your room. The FIA has control of one switch, you have control of another. The light will only switch on when both switches are set to the on position. So, if Mr FIA turns his switch on, the wing doesn't open until Mr Driver turns his switch on. The same is true for the reverse.

I don't give a rats ass who gets what penalty where. A RATS ASS! I am purely speaking about the safety point somebody raised, where they felt it was dangerous if a rear wing could suddenly open anywhere on track. Simple answer is it can't without the drivers permission. We aren't going to see cars spearing off the track because of a DRS failure. It will only happen if we have a skills failure on the drivers part, because they activated it in the wrong place.

For all I care fine the FIA a million billion dollars and make your precious Falonso WDC now! A RATS ASS!

[Mr Alcatraz]

OKAY!

FROM A SAFETY POINT OF VIEW.

It is not possible for a rear wing to open mid corner on it's own due to any kind of failure. Simple. The driver has to activate the system manually, regardless of what the FIA system is doing.

Lets make it simple for the simple folk around here. Just think of it as the light bulb in your room. The FIA has control of one switch, you have control of another. The light will only switch on when both switches are set to the on position. So, if Mr FIA turns his switch on, the wing doesn't open until Mr Driver turns his switch on. The same is true for the reverse.

I don't give a rats ass who gets what penalty where. A RATS ASS! I am purely speaking about the safety point somebody raised, where they felt it was dangerous if a rear wing could suddenly open anywhere on track. Simple answer is it can't without the drivers permission. We aren't going to see cars spearing off the track because of a DRS failure. It will only happen if we have a skills failure on the drivers part, because they activated it in the wrong place.

For all I care fine the FIA a million billion dollars and make your precious Falonso WDC now! A RATS ASS!

I'm glad you decided to calm down scro.
I was playing devil’s advocate. DRS, like racing is inherently unsafe.
It adds another layer of danger IMO.
If you’re worried about the button being engaged outside the DRS zone for whatever reason you should be against its implementation, period.
BTW you just can't help being antagonistic, and insulting in a very lame way can you cupcake?

[i70q7m7ghw]

You continue to misunderstand? I never said I was 'worried about the button being engaged outside the DRS zone'

I suggest you start quoting posts more specifically, it's like your in a different conversation.

If you keep twisting somebody's words in to something they are not, expect them to get upset.

[Mr Alcatraz]

You continue to misunderstand? I never said I was 'worried about the button being engaged outside the DRS zone'

I suggest you start quoting posts more specifically, it's like your in a different conversation.

If you keep twisting somebody's words in to something they are not, expect them to get upset.

OK, you're concerned with safety
Alonso may have pushed the DRS button outside the DRS zone.
I guess we are in total agreement.

[Jeffsvilleusa]

Supposedly "Raiders of the Lost Ark," the Indiana Jones movie started a film revolution because it was a movie that consisted of all "good parts," action scene following action scene without needless plot to slow it down, and it spawned a generation of movies like "Die Hard" etc. Well, I think that is what has happened here with F1- the powers that be are unabashedly pursuing the 'good parts' of a race at whatever cost: unbalanced looking front and rear wings, and a pandora's box of race variables (Pirelli, DRS, KERS). It's like a one night stand- where's the romance? The thrill of the chase? The engineering has taken a back seat to the 'spectacle.' Maybe instead we need spectacles. Spectacles to see that this isn't what drew us to F1 in the first place. It wasn't the exercise of passing for passing's sake! It was for that rare glimpse of inspiration- the Imola duels of '05 and '06. The frustrated Hakkinen finally finding a 'different' way around Schumacher at Spa. The technological innovation that vaults a team up the grid. Now technology is practically punished- if there is a breakthrough, count on it being banned next season. All for the sake of keeping racing close, so there are more 'good parts.'

p.s. one of these days I'm gonna post a technical post that'll knock your socks off- as soon as someone can explain to me what is laminar flow.

[Rob01]

The DRS is activated in a number of different ways. Some have buttons some have foot pedals. Merc uses a third pedal on floor board where the driver normally rest his foot. Renault uses the old traction control method which allows the gas pedal to further extend to the floor when available. The DRS system had failures during the preseason and the FIA said the system would be a work in progress. Alonso did nothing wrong.

[she_spools_180]

I'm sure it has been discussed that his DRS enabled much later down the straight,

I have also heard, that Alonso's DRS is foot operated, and *in race mode* full throttle will open the DRS whenever it can be used. and so the theory goes that he hit full throttle at some point after exiting the corner, the DRS was still armed because it has started later, etc etc.

But it does seem a bit strange to me that he would have a DRS activation such as that, not very much control