Flexible wings 2011

[gridwalker]

I wonder if anyone can help me out on the tech regs a little?

Do the rules actually mandate how far forward the bib must extend? In other words, could Red Bull be running a bib which finishes say 10cm farther aft than anyone else? I think the rules stipulate that the bib may not extend forward of the line between the rearmost extent of the front tyres, but I don't know if it MUST reach that far forward?

The rules stipulate that the reference plane must extend the full distance between the wheels : that is why the bib is there.

The bib is an extension of the floor that allows the chassis to be raised above the reference plane to allow more air flow towards and under the floor.

[siskue2005]

I read here that Merc's front is flexing aswell
anyone got any pics?

[hardingfv32]

1) 2010 front wing: Weren't the front wings active? So there would be a hydraulic hose required to travel out to the wing.

2) 2011 front wing: Could the wings not be wired for data acquisition: laser ride height, tire tread temps, etc.?

3) When can the wings be tested for flex? Unless these test are restricted to certain times in the weekend schedule how can a team risk adjusting the wing into a flex level not within the rules?

Brian

[PlatinumZealot]

I read here that Merc's front is flexing aswell
anyone got any pics?

They increased the rake IMO.

[clarkiesyeah]

I saw these in the RB7 thread...

What are those wires? Some sensor? Should they be there at all?

Here come the conspiracy theories...

http://mccabism.blogspot.com/2011/05/re ... ables.html

Those wires look a bit on the thick side, to be merely a sensor link. Plus, 2 on each side. Weird.

[Echo]

they had another thermal image of his car in the pits, and there was no heat showing on the front wing, it's just all nonsense !

They could be turning the heat on and off depending on race scenario etc.

Doesn´t the blowers sit on the wing flaps and not on the main plane of the wing?

Seriously.. Hampusa. Do you even believe on that?

Even tho Im a Super Duper Ferrari fan and I hate Red bull... I think the heat thingy is bull ---.
Maybe Sebatian is the fastest driver, and red bull maybe gets the perfect setup. I think people have focused way too much on the front wing.

Why haven't we focused on the drs? Maybe it has faster reaction When you push the drs button etc

[aral]

they had another thermal image of his car in the pits, and there was no heat showing on the front wing, it's just all nonsense !

They could be turning the heat on and off depending on race scenario etc.

Doesn´t the blowers sit on the wing flaps and not on the main plane of the wing?

What ridiculous comments being posted on a supposedly technical thread. It is the entire package that is fast, and putting up obscure "theories" just spoils any sensibility of the thread.

[HampusA]

Of course, the real question is "so, heating theory guys, where are they getting the energy to do this heating?" because to heat that wing the way they are suggesting would require serious energy.

You only need electricity and not "serious" energy.

Funny that people assume i´m a Ferrari fan and hate RBR...
I enjoy the show, i´m just giving my thoughts based on what i see from the images.

We know the wing passes the tests, but we also know the wing flexes more then allowed. Nobody can deny that. If you do then check images from when the car is stationary and while at top speed.

I don´t have a problem with the wing, i just want to find out how they manage to pass the tests.

[CHT]

Here's another pic at the start of the race, you can see the thermal spot at the front wing.

I believe what we are seeing is the shadow of the front wing on the track. (which make it look cooler than the rest of the track under direct sun light.

As for the thermal spot, it does look like the cut away section at the back of the front wing.

[Just_a_fan]

Of course, the real question is "so, heating theory guys, where are they getting the energy to do this heating?" because to heat that wing the way they are suggesting would require serious energy.

You only need electricity and not "serious" energy.

Electricity is energy, silly! And to heat a couple of kilos of carbon fibre wing so that it bends more will require a lot of energy, sorry, electricity. And where would that electricity come from? The car's engine is the only source that is available throughout the race - asking for tens/hundreds of kilowatts (because the effect has to happen quickly so needs very rapid heating) would make the car slower - the engine would have less power available to offset the drag.

No, the whole "heating the wing to make it bendy" idea makes no sense at all.

You'll be suggesting they have trained fairies pushing down on the endplates next...

[Shaddock]

Of course, the real question is "so, heating theory guys, where are they getting the energy to do this heating?" because to heat that wing the way they are suggesting would require serious energy.

You only need electricity and not "serious" energy.

Electricity is energy, silly! And to heat a couple of kilos of carbon fibre wing so that it bends more will require a lot of energy, sorry, electricity. And where would that electricity come from? The car's engine is the only source that is available throughout the race - asking for tens/hundreds of kilowatts

I don't subscribe to the heating theory, (although you could do it on less than 1KW not hundreds) because of the dangers of running high currents into the front wing. KERS has it's dangers, but putting a lethal amount of juice into front wing that a times takes damage and needs changing by the pit crew..... not so sure a team would risk it.

[thisisatest]

i watched the race on Speed today. before the race, there was Will Buxton walking down pit row, talking about the individual car updates per team. One team (Force India?) had two nose sections out, an old one with the front wing in the foreground, and a new version without the front wing assembled in the background.
The new version had a couple wires sticking out of the bottom of each front wing pylon, just like Vettel's crashed wing.
So i think, whatever the wires are there for, it's completely normal.

[Robbobnob]

a simple piezoelectric bushing on the front suspension mounts would generate voltage, as this is only speculation: a simple LCR circuit could generate enough energy to sustain a heating element. Depending on the material used for the element enough heat could easily be generated off 40 - 100 watts if the material was similar to tungsten, however the rough impulse loads generated from the suspension could be detrimental to the structural integrity of the element.

or something like that, i however dont believe it was a heating element, most likely simple accelerometers or strain gauges in the wing. a strain rosette, would provide feedback on the wing elements deformations quite nicely...

just my 2 cents worth

[Just_a_fan]

Listen, we know the wing flex more then allowed so theorys will come in bunches until we really know what´s up. So stop the attitude, you don´t know --- either.

The best hypothesis to date is that Red Bull Racing has invested a lot of effort in developing a combined FEA/CFD system that allows them to design a clever carbon lay up for the front wing. This allows the wing to pass the simple vertical load test but to deflect when subjected to the more complicated aero loads.

No need to come up with heating elements or some of the other schemes proposed hereabouts.

Sorry if that puts a hole in your boat...

[i70q7m7ghw]

Listen, we know the wing flex more then allowed so theorys will come in bunches until we really know what´s up. So stop the attitude, you don´t know --- either.

The best hypothesis to date is that Red Bull Racing has invested a lot of effort in developing a combined FEA/CFD system that allows them to design a clever carbon lay up for the front wing. This allows the wing to pass the simple vertical load test but to deflect when subjected to the more complicated aero loads.

No need to come up with heating elements or some of the other schemes proposed hereabouts.

Sorry if that puts a hole in your boat...

+1

It's quite clear Red Bull are very being very clever with the contruction of their FW. Other teams thought the changes to the load tests would prevent them from doing this, but it appears they were able to adapt their methods. Other teams simply need to follow suite.

The only way these wires could fit in is if they are laying in wire of different lengths in to the carbon, so when the wing is under tension you get a cascade effect which causes the wing to twist/bend in a certain direction. This could only be if they hit a limit on what is possible with just carbon lay up.

There is absolutely NO active system involved, there is nothing connected to the suspension or anything else that pulls on wires to move the wing. Either the wires are for sensors, or they are structural.