Turkish GP 2011 - Istanbul

[Jimi_Hendrix_1967]

Only 3 or 4 laps. Even when Hamilton got pace later in the race, the others still beat him with several tenths per lap, hence the distance.

How did "the others still beat him" after lap 35 by several tenths per lap? From the graph I see him catching up to Vettel slightly and keeping pace with the climbing Webber and Alonso (slightly closing on them too). ........................... Or is that graph wrong?

And whos fault was that? The traffic?

Hamilton couldv qualified 2nd but he failed.

He also couldv started better but he failed.

Then he couldv stayed on the track at the start but he failed there too.

Or make better use of the DRS and his supposed overtaking skills but no, he could not clear his teammate Jenson Button. Considering all that Hamilton shouldnt complain about finishing 4th, and start working on his tendency to drop it on important moments in a race.

Nobody said it was anyone's fault. They simply said his pace showed he could have kept up. That is all. ......................... Hamilton didn't complain about finishing 4th either.

Haha, stating the facts is now equal to stirring up? ....................

He claimed Hamilton couldv kept up if it wasnt for traffic and destroying his tyres behind Button. I merely claim if Hamilton hadnt failed his start and swerved off the track, he wouldnt have ended up behind Button in the first place. As it is he finished a long way behind the Red Bulls and the man who started behind him: Fernando Alonso. Aside of that the timing I saw did not suggest he was on the pace of the Ferrari or the Red Bull, even when freed from Button and with new tyres.

[netoperek]

who said that SV and MW were going on the limit for the whole race? lol they were controling the gap for whole race with Vettel and showed that there is still a bit more when needed with Webber.

[beelsebob]

Haha, stating the facts is now equal to stirring up? Perhaps in a fan boys mind.

He claimed Hamilton couldv kept up if it wasnt for traffic and destroying his tyres behind Button. I merely claim if Hamilton hadnt failed his start and swerved off the track, he wouldnt have ended up behind Button in the first place. As it is he finished a long way behind the Red Bulls and the man who started behind him: Fernando Alonso. Aside of that the timing I saw did not suggest he was on the pace of the Ferrari or the Red Bull, even when freed from Button and with new tyres.

Rather the point was that previously people had only stated facts – the McLaren, under Hamilton's control could keep pace with the front runners. You started trying to bring up assigning blame for him not keeping up at the start (something which I believe was entirely Hamilton's fault). Go look at the graphs again – from lap 35 onwards, Hamilton kept pace with both RBRs and the one Ferrari. Who's fault it was that he wasn't up with them is another matter, and one that pretty much everyone seems to agree on.

[beelsebob]

who said that SV and MW were going on the limit for the whole race? lol they were controling the gap for whole race with Vettel and showed that there is still a bit more when needed with Webber.

You think that Webber was deliberately running slower than his car/fuel would allow when Alonso was within 2 seconds of him, and had shown she was capable of passing?

[netoperek]

What i mean is Webber lost some time earlier and was able to make a successful comeback - i think it can be interpreted as on my previous post?
No denying thou that Vettel was fastest square and fair...again Only real surprise and possible threat to RB (in case there were some mistakes from RB part) was Alonso's pace.

[Jimi_Hendrix_1967]

Haha, stating the facts is now equal to stirring up? Perhaps in a fan boys mind.

He claimed Hamilton couldv kept up if it wasnt for traffic and destroying his tyres behind Button. I merely claim if Hamilton hadnt failed his start and swerved off the track, he wouldnt have ended up behind Button in the first place. As it is he finished a long way behind the Red Bulls and the man who started behind him: Fernando Alonso. Aside of that the timing I saw did not suggest he was on the pace of the Ferrari or the Red Bull, even when freed from Button and with new tyres.

Rather the point was that previously people had only stated facts – the McLaren, under Hamilton's control could keep pace with the front runners. You started trying to bring up assigning blame for him not keeping up at the start (something which I believe was entirely Hamilton's fault). Go look at the graphs again – from lap 35 onwards, Hamilton kept pace with both RBRs and the one Ferrari. Who's fault it was that he wasn't up with them is another matter, and one that pretty much everyone seems to agree on.

I watched the graph and the live timing. The only difference was instead of losing almost 2 sec a lap to the leaders untill lap 35, Hamilton started to lap within tenths and sometimes faster than the leaders. If he was to keep up, he shouldv showed that pace the whole race, wich he didnt.

[marcush.]

Mclaren have learned now to not use more than one set of sticker softs in Q3..With the pitstop dramas for Lewis it didn´t make a difference.You cannot afford to throw away 15seconds in the pits.

[beelsebob]

I watched the graph and the live timing. The only difference was instead of losing almost 2 sec a lap to the leaders untill lap 35, Hamilton started to lap within tenths and sometimes faster than the leaders. If he was to keep up, he shouldv showed that pace the whole race, wich he didnt.

Ugh – you don't seem to be capable of separating "zomg hamilton {rawks | sucks}" from "the McLaren did not have a slow race pace, it has hobbled by mistakes". The point being made here is that the result was not as terrible for McLaren as the numbers make it look. The car is still as fast as the Ferrari & RBR, as his pace late in the race demonstrated.

[Jimi_Hendrix_1967]

You are reading it wrong. Im saying because of the mistakes of Hamilton in the first few laps, his race was compromised. Not because he was stuck behind Button, but the reason why he was stuck there in the first place.

This view is also shared by Mclaren themselves. Im sure youll blame them stirring up hornets too.

'said Whitmarsh. "In the race itself, obviously losing some places at the beginning made it very difficult to recover from that; if you get into having to be aggressive with the tyres to get through the field you are just damaging your tyres.'

[beelsebob]

You are reading it wrong. Im saying because of the mistakes of Hamilton in the first few laps, his race was compromised. Not because he was stuck behind Button, but the reason why he was stuck there in the first place.

Agreed – it absolutely was Hamilton's fault – this is the point that we all agree on that I was referring to in my previous point.

You're still missing the point that people are not talking about who's fault it was, but instead, what McLaren's race pace is like when people don't --- up badly. To do this, we observe a period of the race where no one was --- up. The only period with McLaren where this was the case, was with Hamilton from lap 35 onwards. During this period, Hamilton was keeping pace with the RBR and Ferrari drivers on the same strategy. This informs us that McLaren's race pace is as good as RBR and Ferrari's.

Just to clarify one more time – I agree, it was Hamilton's fault, he --- up this race. This is not the relevant point under discussion and was not before.

[Just_a_fan]

Hamilton himself says he made a mistake when trying to get by Webber. He also thinks that had he not done so, he might have challenged for third or second. That seems reasonable.

[JamesS]

Very frustrating race for Lewis I'm sure.

Problems at the start, driver error, compounded by wrong wing setup.

Then he burns his tyres out earlier than others, certainly not helped being stuck so close behind his team mate, due to his first lap error. A rubbish pit stop ended the slim chance of a podium, loosing at least 15 seconds. If you remove that problem, the stats for McLaren don't look too bad, but it is a big surprise to see Alonso so close to the Red Bulls. Did they have updates? Or simply a case of car better suited to track along with superior setup?

[Jimi_Hendrix_1967]

You are reading it wrong. Im saying because of the mistakes of Hamilton in the first few laps, his race was compromised. Not because he was stuck behind Button, but the reason why he was stuck there in the first place.

Agreed – it absolutely was Hamilton's fault – this is the point that we all agree on that I was referring to in my previous point.

You're still missing the point that people are not talking about who's fault it was, but instead, what McLaren's race pace is like when people don't --- up badly. To do this, we observe a period of the race where no one was --- up. The only period with McLaren where this was the case, was with Hamilton from lap 35 onwards. During this period, Hamilton was keeping pace with the RBR and Ferrari drivers on the same strategy. This informs us that McLaren's race pace is as good as RBR and Ferrari's.

Just to clarify one more time – I agree, it was Hamilton's fault, he --- up this race. This is not the relevant point under discussion and was not before.

Not with you, but the other poster did suggest it was because of being stuck behind Button he wasnt closer. Looking at Hamiltons stint times when he was in free air, the second and the third, does not indicate he wouldv stayed with the leaders if he didnt made his start lap mistakes. Hamilton was dead slow, on new tyres, in clean air. Just why he was able to pick up pace in the last 10-14 laps orso remains vague.

[beelsebob]

Not with you, but the other poster did suggest it was because of being stuck behind Button he wasnt closer. Looking at Hamiltons stint times when he was in free air, the second and the third, does not indicate he wouldv stayed with the leaders if he didnt made his start lap mistakes. Hamilton was dead slow, on new tyres, in clean air. Just why he was able to pick up pace in the last 10-14 laps orso remains vague.

1) I see no one suggesting that Hamilton was or wasn't a loser other than you.
2) It's absolutely true that it was because he was stuck behind button that he wasn't closer – the cause of this is absolutely because Hamilton cocked up in turn 3. No one has tried to say anything else.
3) Exactly at what period of the race was Hamilton dead slow on new tyres in clean air? Up until the last 20 laps (when he was keeping up just fine) he was running in dirty air behind one car or another.

Edit: Oh, you're trying to claim the second and third stints were run in clean air – the stints when he was rammed up behind Rosburg and Massa, causing his tyres to go off again.

[Jimi_Hendrix_1967]

Maybe you should reread the thread and watch the race again, because you are seriously going off track here. Ill give you a hint - Hamilton was ahead of Rosberg, Massa and Rosberg in his 2nd stint.