Turkish GP 2011 - Istanbul

[andrew]

Phew!! 2 and a half pages. You guys are really going at it!

Look at the results. They speak for themselves. Hamilton and McLaren were not good enough today. Simple as that.

[beelsebob]

Phew!! 2 and a half pages. You guys are really going at it!

Look at the results. They speak for themselves. Hamilton and McLaren were not good enough today. Simple as that.

Agreed - that's not what's being discussed though. What's being discussed is "was McLaren's race pace good enough to keep up with red bull if we assume no one cocks up". The answer after far too many posts appears to be "yes".

[Jimi_Hendrix_1967]

Lap 20: Hamilton is now 16 seconds off the lead in fourth and doesn't have great pace at this stage in the 1m34s bracket.

Lap 28: Hamilton is a further 16.9 seconds behind in fourth and likely to be threatened by his team-mate's three-stop plan.

[FrukostScones]

Very bad day for McLaren. They were too fixated on a 3 stop strategy, they completly missed what was going on
around them. It was horrible to watch Button drown. Everyone was coming in, his tyres were shot and he kept going.... just horrible!

[ringo]

And if the old system was used last year, the championship would have been tied between Vettel and Hamilton, Lewis only losing out on count back.

Just a correction on a factual error there mate - I kept a running spreadsheet of last year, if it ran on the 10-8-6 points, and also this year. Last year Hamilton would NOT have been champ even on 10-8-6.
Link: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8533&start=60

And here was what it worked out to:

Vettel 104
Alonso 101
Lewis 100
Webber 97
Jenson 87
Felipe 57
Rosberg 55
Kubica 52
Schumacher 25
Sutil 15
Barrichello 15
Kobayashi 9
Petrov 9
Hulkenberg 6
Liuzzi 5
DelaRosa 2
Heidfeld 1
Buemi 1
Alguersuari 0

I didn't say he would be, it would have been closer. Here is a better example from another site. It goes race by race:

mods excuse the long list:

After race 1, Bahrain.

2010 scoring 2009 scoring
1. Alonso 25 1. Alonso 10
2. Massa 18 2. Massa 8
3. Hamilton 15 3. Hamilton 6
4. Vettel 12 4. Vettel 5
5. Rosberg10 5. Rosberg 4


After race 2, Australia.

2010 scoring 2009 scoring
1 Alonso 37 1. Alonso 15
2 Massa 33 2. Massa 14
3 Button 31 3. Button 12
4 Hamilton 23 4. Hamilton 9
5 Rosberg 20 5. Rosberg 8


So far, the top five remain the same.

After race 3, Malaysia.

2010 scoring 2009 scoring
1 Massa 39 1. Massa 16
2 Alonso 37 2. Alonso 15
3 Vettel 37 3. Vettel 15
4 Button 35 4. Rosberg 14
5 Rosberg 35 5. Kubica, Button 13


Now we start to see the change. Not much yet as it is only the third race.

After race 4, China.

2010 scoring 2009 scoring
1 Button 60 1 Button 23
2 Rosberg 50 2 Hamilton, Alonso , Rosberg 20
3 Alonso 49 3 Vettel 18
4 Hamilton 49 4 Kubica 17
5 Vettel 45 5 Massa 16


More change. A three-way tie for 2nd place.

After race 5, Spain.

2010 scoring 2009 scoring
1 Button 70 1 Button 27
2 Alonso 67 2 Hamilton, Vettel 26
3 Vettel 60 3 Alonso 25
4 Webber 53 4 Rosberg 21
5 Rosberg 50 5 Webber 20


Now a two-way tie for 2nd.

After race 6, Monaco.

2010 scoring 2009 scoring
1 Webber 78 1 Vettel 34
2 Vettel 78 2 Hamilton, Webber 30
3 Alonso 75 3 Alonso 28
4 Button 70 4 Button 27
5 Massa 61 5 Rosberg 23


Now, a significant difference is noted. Hamilton, using the 2010 system isn't in the top 5; using the 2009 system he is tied for 2nd. Massa drops off the chart completely using the 2009 system, with Rosberg taking his place.

After race 7, Turkey.

2010 scoring 2009 scoring
1 Webber 93 1 Hamilton 40
2 Button 88 2 Webber 36
3 Hamilton 84 3 Button 35
4 Alonso 79 4 Vettel 34
5 Vettel 78 5 Alonso 29


It's starting to look like a different Championship. Hamilton, one of only two drivers to finish in the points in all races to this point, has risen to the lead. Vettel, by virtue of his better placings over Alonso swaps positions.

After race 8, Canada.

2010 scoring 2009 scoring
1 Hamilton 109 1 Hamilton 50
2 Button 106 2 Button 43
3 Webber 103 3 Webber 40
4 Alonso 94 4 Vettel 39
5 Vettel 90 5 Alonso 35


Hamilton extends his Championship lead over second, Alonso and Vettel again swap positions.

After race 9, Europe.

2010 scoring 2009 scoring
1 Hamilton 127 1 Hamilton 58
2 Button 121 2 Vettel, Button 49
3 Vettel 115 3 Webber 40
4 Webber 103 4 Alonso 38
5 Alonso 98 5 Kubica 34


Vettel joins Button in a 2-way tie for 2nd, Kubica shows that he is consistently scoring points. Hamilton almost a full race win (10 points) up on the 2nd place tie.

After race 10, Britain.

2010 scoring 2009 scoring
1 Hamilton 145 1 Hamilton 66
2 Button 133 2 Button 54
3 Webber 128 3 Vettel 51
4 Vettel 121 4 Webber 50
5 Alonso 98 5 Alonso, Rosberg 36


Hamilton now more than a race win ahead of 2nd. Vettel and Weber swap positions. Rosberg back to scoring points.

After race 11, Germany.

2010 scoring 2009 scoring
1 Hamilton 157 1 Hamilton 71
2 Button 143 2 Button 58
3 Webber 136 3 Vettel 57
4 Vettel 136 4 Webber 53
5 Alonso 123 5 Alonso 46


Alonso shakes off Rosberg. Hamilton extends by 1 more point over 2nd. Vettel ahead of Weber instead of tied.

After race 12, Hungary.

2010 scoring 2009 scoring
1 Webber 161 1 Hamilton 71
2 Hamilton 157 2 Vettel, Webber 63
3 Vettel 151 3 Button 59
4 Button 147 4 Alonso 54
5 Alonso 141 5 Rosberg 37


Significant difference. 2010 points has Hamilton dropping out of the lead, not so the 2009 points, which instead has Vettel and Weber tied for 2nd with Hamilton's lead being less than one race win.

After race 13, Belgium.

2010 scoring 2009 scoring
1 Hamilton 182 1 Hamilton 81
2 Webber 179 2 Webber 71
3 Vettel 151 3 Vettel 63
4 Button 147 4 Button 59
5 Alonso 141 5 Alonso 54


The first time since race 2 that both points systems agree on placings.

After race 14, Italy.

2010 scoring 2009 scoring
1 Webber 187 1 Hamilton 81
2 Hamilton 182 2 Webber 74
3 Alonso 166 3 Vettel 68
4 Button 165 4 Button 67
5 Vettel 163 5 Alonso 64


A big difference in placings. Only Button stays in the same place using both systems.

After race 15, Singapore.

2010 scoring 2009 scoring
1 Webber 202 1 Hamilton 81
2 Alonso 191 2 Webber 80
3 Hamilton 182 3 Vettel 76
4 Vettel 181 4 Alonso 74
5 Button 177 5 Button 72


Again, significant difference in placings, Hamilton stays in the lead. Less than one race win cover the top 5.

After race 16, Japan.

2010 scoring 2009 scoring
1 Webber 220 1 Webber 88
2 Alonso 206 2 Vettel 86
3 Vettel 206 3 Hamilton 85
4 Hamilton 192 4 Alonso 80
5 Button 189 5 Button 77


Hamilton drops out of lead, both systems agree on the new leader but 2nd, 3rd and 4th are all different.

After race 17, Korea.

2010 scoring 2009 scoring
1 Alonso 231 1 Hamilton 93
2 Webber 220 2 Alonso 90
3 Hamilton 210 3 Webber 88
4 Vettel 206 4 Vettel 86
5 Button 189 5 Button 77


Hamilton back in lead, Alonso moves to 2nd.

After race 18, Brazil.

2010 scoring 2009 scoring
1 Alonso 246 1 Hamilton 98
2 Webber 238 2 Vettel, Alonso, Webber 96
3 Vettel 231 3 Button 81
4 Hamilton 222
5 Button 199


Hamilton stays in the lead, and we have the closest Championship in years, with four drivers within 2 points of each other.

At this point, if the 2009 system was being used, any of the four drivers had a clear cut chance to win the Championship, instead of relying on where the other drivers finished despite their winning etc.

After race 19, Abu Dhabi.

2010 scoring 2009 scoring
1 Vettel 256 1 Hamilton, Vettel 106
2 Alonso 252
3 Webber 242 3 Alonso 98
4 Hamilton 240 4 Webber 97
5 Button 214 5 Button 87


A points-tied Championship. Hard to get much closer than that. The Champion would be Vettel, by virtue of more race wins.

So, which "season" would have been more exciting for you to watch?

But as i mentioned it's not about Hamilton. I don't see why people jump on The BOSS' name so readily.
It's really about keeping the results as close as the racing.

[andrew]

I think it comes down to tyre management rather than outright pace now. Red Bull are still ahead but I think that Ferrari and McLaren are closer to each other with Ferrari being just ahead, in race trim at least.

[Jimi_Hendrix_1967]

Actually Button claimed his tyres were still great when he got called in.

[andrew]

But as i mentioned it's not about Hamilton. I don't see why people jump on The BOSS' name so readily.
It's really about keeping the results as close as the racing.

What's this boss thing? I have yet to understand it as I don't consider him the boss of anything. Perhaps his name could be dropped or alternatively us non Hamilton fans can be allowed an alternative nickname for him? I've seen Lulu bandied about beofore.

Actually Button claimed his tyres were still great when he got called in.

Button has always been kinder to his tyres compared to his team mate who was one of the first to pit.

[Jimi_Hendrix_1967]

So Jenson got shafted by having to pit way too early three times wich costed him at least a position to Rosberg.

[Jimi_Hendrix_1967]

Tbh this race was interesting, but I expect the Red Bulls to walk all over the others at Barcelona.

[FrukostScones]

Actually Button claimed his tyres were still great when he got called in.

Yes, just read it. But his lap times were bad... Vettel already had passed him again before his stop....
The stop was too late for a good 4stop and maybe too early for a good three stop... if that existed today...?!?

[ringo]

So Jenson got shafted by having to pit way too early three times wich costed him at least a position to Rosberg.

Jenson was too slow to make staying out longer work.

I was surprised Hamilton still finished ahead of him. He spent too much time behind the Ferrari and renault and the mercedes.

He can't save tyres any more than other drivers, people need to realize this.

The best cars out there on tyres have the most downforce. This is why a 3 stopper was very possible for the Redbulls.

Their dominance is depressing, we need rain in the next race to even the playing field.

[ringo]

But as i mentioned it's not about Hamilton. I don't see why people jump on The BOSS' name so readily.
It's really about keeping the results as close as the racing.

What's this boss thing? I have yet to understand it as I don't consider him the boss of anything. Perhaps his name could be dropped or alternatively us non Hamilton fans can be allowed an alternative nickname for him? I've seen Lulu bandied about beofore.

.

You seem to have selective amnesia every race you ask the same question and you get the same answers.
The BOSS moniker is similar to Prost being The Professor.

It's not a matter of what non hamilton fans think you see. It's what's he's doing to his teammates year in year out.

Would you rather TDG......... the driving god?

Actually Button claimed his tyres were still great when he got called in.

Button has always been kinder to his tyres compared to his team mate who was one of the first to pit

Button has been kinder to lady pirelli only for her to throw his kindness back into his face.
He can't sweet talk the pirellis into lasting longer. They just wont last since they don't put down rubber.

[Jimi_Hendrix_1967]

Jenson Button - 6th "It's a pity to finish so far back after everything in the first stint seemed to go so well. Strategy-wise, I don't think we got it right today. My battle with Lewis was great fun and I there was a lot of excitement on the track, but I was disappointed to finish where I did: the car felt very good but we just went the wrong way on strategy. I think most people probably started the race aiming for a three-stopper, but because many of them damaged their tyres in the first stint, they changed their approach. We didn't, and I was able to put a couple of laps on everyone and my tyres still felt pretty good - but I felt the next two stops were earlier than the tyres could have done, which is disappointing. We didn't leave the stops late enough - the tyres were still good at the end of every stop, so we should have stayed out longer because it just made the last stint extremely difficult. During the final stint, I was trying to get the best out of the car but it's so hard because the difference in pace between a fresh and used set of tyres is so great""


shafted. Mclaren needs to do some introspection on their strategies imo.

[Mr Alcatraz]

But as i mentioned it's not about Hamilton. I don't see why people jump on The BOSS' name so readily.
It's really about keeping the results as close as the racing.

What's this boss thing? I have yet to understand it as I don't consider him the boss of anything. Perhaps his name could be dropped or alternatively us non Hamilton fans can be allowed an alternative nickname for him? I've seen Lulu bandied about beofore.

.

You seem to have selective amnesia every race you ask the same question and you get the same answers.
The BOSS moniker is similar to Prost being The Professor.

It's not a matter of what non hamilton fans think you see. It's what's he's doing to his teammates year in year out.

Would you rather TDG......... the driving god?

Actually Button claimed his tyres were still great when he got called in.

Button has always been kinder to his tyres compared to his team mate who was one of the first to pit

Button has been kinder to lady pirelli only for her to throw his kindness back into his face.
He can't sweet talk the pirellis into lasting longer. They just wont last since they don't put down rubber.

Ringo (or anyone else that was around when the expression first started catching on) please correct me if I'm wrong but "THE BOSS" which is a nickname I really like is a "double entendre". As you explained he is by many considered The guy on top but also the BOSS logo on his riding gear was an inspiration.
See it VVVVVVVVVVVVV right below the Mobile 1 patch



Possibly started by Islamatron!