Turkish GP 2011 - Istanbul

[kalinka]

I was thinking just the opposite as you Marcush. I was a bit confused when before Turkey race Whitmarsh stated that they wouldn't sacrifice grid position because of fresh rubber...As the race unfolded, I could imagine what he meant...If they manage somehow to get off in front like RBR, they could manage the tyres much easyer, and their race wouldn't be hampered fighting back in the field and running in dirty air... Of course to do that, you have to have a good car, capable of doing a pole or fron row lap in qualy as easy as the RBR ( prefferrably only with one set of softs used ). Now it seems if you're just as fast as RBR, it's not enough to start behind them. You're only option then is to jump over them on start.
Before Turkey I thougth that the quest for pole is over, but obviously it didn't happened yet, but maybe you're right, and later they can work out some strategy that works differently.

[beelsebob]

I was thinking just the opposite as you Marcush. I was a bit confused when before Turkey race Whitmarsh stated that they wouldn't sacrifice grid position because of fresh rubber...As the race unfolded, I could imagine what he meant...If they manage somehow to get off in front like RBR, they could manage the tyres much easyer, and their race wouldn't be hampered fighting back in the field and running in dirty air... Of course to do that, you have to have a good car, capable of doing a pole or fron row lap in qualy as easy as the RBR ( prefferrably only with one set of softs used ). Now it seems if you're just as fast as RBR, it's not enough to start behind them. You're only option then is to jump over them on start.
Before Turkey I thougth that the quest for pole is over, but obviously it didn't happened yet, but maybe you're right, and later they can work out some strategy that works differently.

Yep, the key is to run in clean air... That means P1/2 work because you stand a good chance of getting into the clean air, P3-9 don't work. If however you can manage to be P10 but on hard tyres, you should end up in clean air as the grid in front of you disappears, and have 2 sets of softs to make up the 10 second deficit. I'm somewhat surprised that no one has tried using hards for Q1, softs for Q2, hards for Q3.

[WhiteBlue]

An entertaining race with a pleasant outcome. Congrats to Red Bull for their first 1-2 finish this year. Well done the team for rebuilding Seb's car to full strength.

Alonso was brilliant in the surprisingly strong Ferrari. I thought they would end up in fifth or sixth position but Ferrari have excellent race pace compared to qualifying. So perhaps there is still some hope for the tifosi.

Merc was disappointing not only for me but also for poor Niko Rosberg. It is just the reverse of Ferrari. The race pace is not there.

KERS and DRS were contributing to a lively race as was the fragility of the tyres. For my taste the tyres are too fragile. They shed too much debris on track and make it difficult to fight overtaking battles through multiple corners.

Hamiltons pass on Rosberg into T8 was very surprising and well done. Beautiful move!

A crying shame if they scrap this wonderful circuit due to the bloody money demands of Bernie. I think it is absolutely the best right behind Spa.

[kalinka]

@beelsebob
Yeah, that was in my mind, and you converted the theory to grid positions, which is easyer to understand that my long explanation I just couldnt't formulate it as simply as you. Thanks.

[PlatinumZealot]

Put Massa was released before Hamilton was beside him, same thing with Vettel and Hamilton.

Both Hamilton and Vettel took the high line knowing that Massa and Hamilton would come up beside them.

No, Hamilton and Vettel were released at the same time, this time Massa clearly released after Hamilton was already coming down the lane.

[archiebald]

I've posted elsewhere on this.

The race was bad for two reasons IMO.

1. DRS zone was too long making it too easy to pass. I agree with DRS in principle - it worked brilliantly in China with only about half the overtaking attempts actually panning out. But in Turkey, the overtake was guaranteed for the overtaker and the overtakee had virtually zero possibility for any defensive driving.

2. Pirelli need to make real tyres. There is very little driving skill involved in overtaking someone who's tyres are dead after 10~15 laps. Depending on how you count them there were 73~82 pit stops in this grand prix, the most since Donington 1993 and that was under changeable wet/dry conditions.

The best racing in the event was Lewis vs Jenson (mostly outside the DRS zone) and on similar aged tyres.

Bridgestone + KERS + Good DRS setup is all we need. Pirelli = fail


As for the Massa vs Lewis pit release, that was in no way the same as Lewis vs Vettel from China 2010.

China 2010 - both cars released together, Lewis got wheelspin and lost ground, Vettel deliberately tried to push him into the garages.

Turkey 2011 - Lewis was almost level with the Ferrari pit when Massa was released, Lewis reacted when he thought Massa was going to hit him, but otherwise ran straight.

Massa staying alongside Lewis was not the point, initial release by the team was the problem IMO.

[andartop]

The overtake was guaranteed for the overtaker and the overtakee had virtually zero possibility for any defensive driving.

Shame no one told Massa when he was struggling to overtake Rosberg!

Depending on how you count them there were 73~82 pit stops in this grand prix.

Maybe I'm too thick or it's just too early in the morning, but I always thought there was only one way to count pit stops, ie the traditional way of counting, same as with all things?

The best racing in the event was Lewis vs Jenson (mostly outside the DRS zone) and on similar aged tyres.

I quite enjoyed Alonso's racing throughout the whole race, fighting for second and matching the Red Bull's pace. I'm sure there are other people out there who enjoyed other parts of the race. We've certainly seen much worse races in the last 20 years I think...

[Echo]

I've posted elsewhere on this.

The race was bad for two reasons IMO.

1. DRS zone was too long making it too easy to pass. I agree with DRS in principle - it worked brilliantly in China with only about half the overtaking attempts actually panning out. But in Turkey, the overtake was guaranteed for the overtaker and the overtakee had virtually zero possibility for any defensive driving.

2. Pirelli need to make real tyres. There is very little driving skill involved in overtaking someone who's tyres are dead after 10~15 laps. Depending on how you count them there were 73~82 pit stops in this grand prix, the most since Donington 1993 and that was under changeable wet/dry conditions.

The best racing in the event was Lewis vs Jenson (mostly outside the DRS zone) and on similar aged tyres.

Bridgestone + KERS + Good DRS setup is all we need. Pirelli = fail

As for the Massa vs Lewis pit release, that was in no way the same as Lewis vs Vettel from China 2010.

China 2010 - both cars released together, Lewis got wheelspin and lost ground, Vettel deliberately tried to push him into the garages.

Turkey 2011 - Lewis was almost level with the Ferrari pit when Massa was released, Lewis reacted when he thought Massa was going to hit him, but otherwise ran straight.
Massa staying alongside Lewis was not the point, initial release by the team was the problem IMO.

I think McLaren failed to have the same pace as the Bulls and Alonso? It wasn't Pirelli's and DRS fault that McLaren didn't have a good car. I feel tha McLaren isn't as good as you think. Same with Ferrari



Edit: wrote at the wrong place

Edit: spelling

[raymondu999]

Huh? In now way does Archie put in excuses for McLaren. McLaren clearly underperformed in Turkey; and I don't think anyone can refute that. Sure it was due to several mistakes; but that's all part and parcel of formula one. A large part of it is also making sure you don't make mistakes.

I used to be a McL fan myself (though not really nowadays) and I can't refute that the battle that lasted 5 or 6 corners between the McLarens were exciting stuff.

He's not blaming Pirellis for McLaren's goofs in Turkey; he's blaming Pirelli for making a fresh-tyred car to be able to too easily overtake a worn-tyred car; and blaming the long DRS zone for making overtaking too easy.

[marcush.]

There is so much performance loss in chewing up your tyres in Qualy .The advantage of good fresh rubber is dominating everything in the races .Imagine having two unused sets of option tyres ..or even three! that an awful lot of elapsed time there on the plate..in fact it could compensate for a 5 tenths speed deficit (or even more!) if you got a good race setup.
You need of course a strategy that is keeping you in clean air so it´s possible to make use of all that potential.
For Mark Webber and Kamui kobayashi it seemed to work brilliantly in the last races ,maybe it´s not a startegy to win a race but surely for Mercedes it would be the option to get a third place from that car ..that is valid for all of the second group of cars i believe.
How to avoid running in dirty air? Start on prime tyres and attack as hard as you can chewing up these say in 10 laps and be the first in the pits.this will inevitabvly bring you at the end of the pack ...,it does not matter if you are behind the true backmarkers ,but it would have a value not to drop behind Team Lotus .Now on fresh sticker tyres you could really go for it as all the guys in front are now diving into the pits.As you are coming like a storm from behind you will inevitably motivate people to pit as they see your advantage on fresh tyres...again opening the potential to make maximum use of the softs.Again you will be a litlle bit early for the second round of stops ....and got it all in your hands for the third stop.
All you need is a consistant race setup and be calm in the first corners in the pack not to have a meeting with petrov and Alguesuari.

[Richard]

For my taste the tyres are too fragile. They shed too much debris on track and make it difficult to fight overtaking battles through multiple corners.

Were you watching a different race? I saw a lot of moves using the combination of turns 12, 13, 14. Just like a boxer manoeuvring his opponent into a exposed postilion so he can land the knock out blow.

[nipo]

Missed the race - Was Overtaking-San's performance any good? He ran from the back of the field, and interviews suggest he could have been 7th if not for the puncture!

[zeph]

I feel that F1 this year is more like a videogame, with KERS, DRS and the funny tires.

Sure, it creates more action, but it all feels somewhat contrived.


Why not alter the rules with fuel limits?

[andrew]

I feel that F1 this year is more like a videogame, with KERS, DRS and the funny tires.

I have made the same analogy else where.

F1 has gone from one extreme to another - a drought to a flood.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Dont you think F1 is better off for it?

My new girlfriend hated F1, said it was yeeeeaaaaaw! cars just going round and round beating the track into submission. She watched both China and Turkey with me and things its great...still not shopping great, but a damn sight better than the footy!

I love what they've done. Hope it stays this way, and a huge pat on the back to the guys at Pirelli.