Turkish GP 2011 - Istanbul

[WhiteBlue]

For my taste the tyres are too fragile. They shed too much debris on track and make it difficult to fight overtaking battles through multiple corners.

Were you watching a different race? I saw a lot of moves using the combination of turns 12, 13, 14. Just like a boxer manoeuvring his opponent into a exposed postilion so he can land the knock out blow.

I'm aware of this but with less tyre debris we would see even more of this. Often drivers don't go of the line because they have no traction.

[beelsebob]

For my taste the tyres are too fragile. They shed too much debris on track and make it difficult to fight overtaking battles through multiple corners.

Were you watching a different race? I saw a lot of moves using the combination of turns 12, 13, 14. Just like a boxer manoeuvring his opponent into a exposed postilion so he can land the knock out blow.

I'm aware of this but with less tyre debris we would see even more of this. Often drivers don't go of the line because they have no traction.

Less tyre debris would only be caused by tyres that wear slower, and hence would cause less overtaking because we'd have less of drivers on different tyre strategies, with wear at different levels.

Bottom line – it's impossible to have it two ways. We cannot have both tyres that wear out and make for exciting overtaking, but also tyres that don't wear out and discard bits of rubber.

Bob

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

You could however have super hard tyres that dont go off but provide 75% off the grip levels of todays tyres.
The cars would squirm under braking and acceleration and would be in that situation from the off.

The only side issue would be far less pitstops if any.

[Richard]

That's a catch 22, because the tyre debris is a consequence of the tyre construction, and that tyre construction is required to allow variability, hence overtaking.

Actually the dirty track is good because it adds another challenge to the driver, the brave & talented who go off line in the right place will be rewarded, but the foolhardy who go offline in the wrong place will suffer (ie Hamilton on lap 1).

The only way to keep a clean track would be to go back to the tedium of the everlasting Bridgestone tyres.

The key lesson of the last few years is that everlasting cars with everlasting tyres results in everlasting processions.

[komninosm]

After the reprimand in China in April 2010 one would have thought another reprimand would be issued for this incident.

Its one thing to be released too soon due to momentary lapse of concentration, but it is quite another thing to drive side by side to the end of the pit lane. Massa only had to lift off the gas to slip in behind Hamilton.

I think that reprimand was caused by Vettel being an @$$ and pushing Hamilton towards the garage. We've seen cars side by side lots of times in the pits and Vettel is the only one to do that (IIRC). They just slapped the warning to Hamilton too because they wanted to appear impartial and appease all the Ham-haters. The real impartial ruling would have been to penalise only Vettel for dangerous driving (pushing another car off track) with a drive through or grid penalty.

[HampusA]

but the foolhardy who go offline in the wrong place will suffer (ie Hamilton on lap 1).

I don´t think that was due to rubber offline, the place where he went wide is also a bump right before, or not a bump but a elevation change wich makes the car light thus making his outer line that much harder to hold.

Pure skills in keeping the car on track though, my guess is 50% of the other drivers would put it off track.

[Richard]

Was it the same corner (turn 4?) where Schumacher had his problem and was passed by both Sutil and Di Resta?

It is interesting that Brawn blames Schumacher's poor quali on running wide into turn 1 and picking up dirt on his tyres.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula ... 347579.stm

[HampusA]

Yea i think it was T4. Would be nice to get some video on it but it will probably come up on youtube soon.

Can´t imagine him losing a full second only to go wide in T1. To me it looked like he´s not understanding the tires or maybe overused them or just a crappy setup in his car.

[Richard]

So, rubber on track + change of elevation = loss of traction = lost places.

Meanwhile, bravely going offline at turn 12 forced the other driver off line at turn 13, giving the brave driver a better line out of turn 14.

A good example of the fine line between foolhardy and brave.

[HampusA]

I think he just overshot the corner not taking into consideration the extra weight he´s carrying.

Is there really marbles left from the day before?

[aral]

I think he just overshot the corner not taking into consideration the extra weight he´s carrying.

Is there really marbles left from the day before?

Unlikely, the tracks are swept before the race, to remove debris.

[HampusA]

Ok then that pretty much confirms my point, he overshoot the corner not taking into consideration the elevation switch and the extra fuel he´s carrying.

Props for trying though imo. He´s one of the few that goes balls to the walls. Sometimes he does silly mistakes but most of the time he´s creating magic.

[alelanza]

Remember it's not just a question of debris/no debris. It's also that the racing line will always be much grippier than off line , even after being swept. Someone here who went to the race (Shrieker?) made a good comment wondering whether F1 teams study support races as many people went off in that same place due to less grip prior to the F1 race.
Then again it depends on how you want to word it, what does it mean to overshoot a corner? if you say it's braking too late or not at all given the corner's geometry/car positioning/grip levels for your car, then yeah he overshot it.

[HampusA]

He came in to hot, if he would have had a lower entry speed he would have made the corner.

Sorry if overshot means something else or another word should be used instead, i´m not from an english speaking country but i do my best.

[alelanza]

No need to be sorry, i think you used the term correctly, btw i'm not a native speaker either, i was just pointing more to the definition of the term. Depends on how you want to look at it is all.