Flexible wings 2011

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Tozza Mazza
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Joined: 13 Jan 2011, 12:00
Location: UK

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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RBR are able to pass the flexibility test, but it doesn't make its car legal and it is certainly against the spirit of the regulations. The FIA can't keep a team obviously breaking the rules for much longer now. Its not the reason the rb7 is the best car, but it's most definately the reason why vettel has been able to dominate so far this season.

malcolm
malcolm
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Joined: 28 Aug 2008, 16:45

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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Well, I mentioned that in one of my previous posts. I would make 3.17 much more relevant, saying that a point load of X Newtons can be applied in any point within a defined zone, with the force being roughly equivalent to what would be seen at 300 km/h. The zone would effectively encompass the entire main-plane of the wing and the endplate (including the step).

Assumption time:
1) At 300 km/h, the front wing makes roughly 4000 N of downforce (total guess).
2) At 300 km/h, most wings only deflect 10 mm.
*These would change to reflect more applicable, current data, if given the resources that the FIA would have.

3.17.1 (Malcolm's Version): Bodywork may deflect no more than 10 mm vertically when a 4000N load is applied vertically to it anywhere within an area bounded by four horizontal lines. One 1000 mm forward of the front wheel centre line, one 500 mm forward of the front wheel centre line, one 500 mm from the car centre line, and one 895 mm from the car centre line. The load will be applied in a downward direction using a 50 mm diameter ram to the centre of area of an adapter measuring 300 mm x 150 mm, the 300 mm length having been positioned parallel to the car centre line. Teams must supply the adapter when such a test is deemed necessary.


That's how I'd write it, though I would alter a few details, such as the testing zone, forces and flexibility limits to accurately replicate on-track forces seen by the wing. I would want to test in a range of areas to ensure they are not using an offset centre of pressure from the testing point to allow the wing to twist forward, allowing it to flex in a different manner than that which is currently tested.


Why aren't they doing that? Who knows...? Ferrari and McLaren weren't happy that they have to develop more flexible wings when a rule states that wings shouldn't flex. Rather than the limit merely being a limit, now the limit is becoming a target, as teams are ignoring the fundamental rule that states wings should not flex.

The FIA have seen the effects of wing failures, and by having teams developing flexi-wings, I am sure we'll see some failures in the future (Vettel at Silverstone won't likely be the last, especially if HRT tries to make a flexi-wing!).

Perhaps they believe that a front-wing failure is less dangerous than a rear-wing failure, and that perhaps advanced flexible composite designs could be advantageous in other industries (aerospace, etc), and by allowing teams to do this now, it could position them at the forefront of such technologies if other companies want to design such features into their products (aircraft, road cars, trains, etc). This could help teams become multifaceted (like Williams, with their hybrid technology), and secure their financial side for years to come.

Ok, enough talking out of my... err... postulating. ;-)

However, 3.15 still states that wings shouldn't flex, and teams now have to design wings that flex. It's dead easy to make very rigid wings that barely flex at all at 350+ km/h, but now have to make wings that flex almost 20 mm at 1000 N, but far more when going 240 km/h, but not flexing too much as to scrape the ground at 300 km/h. How does that make sense?

If the FIA wants flexible wings, they should remove 3.15. If they don't want them, they should enforce 3.15 better by improving 3.17.

It's that simple.

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
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Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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For the DRS example my OPINION and that of FIA would be that it is not flexing if it opens outside the guide lines set for DRS usage. It is being opened and is in contravention of the rules. Now that is not to say that I might not design the DRS mechanism to open just a little at speed. That is assuming it was an advantage. I would increase the accidental opening until something was said. That is how you compete in motor racing. Everything is gray until made black and white. If you don't like it find a different hobby/sport because myself and the majority of the other racers are not going to change.

"Spirit of the rules" Are we in grade school or F1?

Brian

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Joined: 29 Jan 2010, 11:51
Location: SU 419113

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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A perfect correlation of what is going on now would be this.

Olympic regulations stipulate no use of steroids. Blood derived or otherwise.
A sprinter has the option of using a substance that will enhance his performance, and is clearly a stimulant/ steroid, but that cannot be proven under current Olympic regulations.

So, what are they to do? Expect all athletes to go ahead and take steroids, as they cannot define the rule clearly enough? What's the point in banning steroids then? The rule should either no longer exist, or be enforced.

Overcome my objection and I'm all ears.

Mods should also unlock the petition thread and allow people to have a say. This is F1 And technical after all.....


Malcolm. You are not alone in your logic mate :)
More could have been done.
David Purley

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
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Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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Olympic athletes: Here we have people that dedicate their complete life until retirement to training for one activity. Some would consider this extreme behavior. Can I make it without dedicating all my life to training? Where do you draw the limit on training? Generally the most dedication wins the contest with all other things being equal. Is it that much of a jump to dedicate your future health to winning? Many choose to make this choice when it is feasible. So now better training thru chemistry is just another skill set you must master. Nothing stays the same.

Your objection is valid, just not enforceable.

Brian

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mep
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
Location: Germany

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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malcolm wrote: However, 3.15 still states that wings shouldn't flex, and teams now have to design wings that flex. It's dead easy to make very rigid wings that barely flex at all at 350+ km/h, but now have to make wings that flex almost 20 mm at 1000 N, but far more when going 240 km/h, but not flexing too much as to scrape the ground at 300 km/h. How does that make sense?

If the FIA wants flexible wings, they should remove 3.15. If they don't want them, they should enforce 3.15 better by improving 3.17.

It's that simple.
No not at all. 3.15 has absolutely noting to do with flex. It is talking about parts having degrees of freedom relative to other parts. 3.17 alone covers all the flexibility otherwise in 3.15 would be something written about flexibility which is not the case. You can forget 3.15 in this relation because it covers skirts.

Tozza Mazza wrote:RBR are able to pass the flexibility test, but it doesn't make its car legal and it is certainly against the spirit of the regulations. The FIA can't keep a team obviously breaking the rules for much longer now. Its not the reason the rb7 is the best car, but it's most definately the reason why vettel has been able to dominate so far this season.
You can forget "the spirit of rules". You can't even quantify this.

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HampusA
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Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 14:49

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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malcolm wrote:If the FIA wants flexible wings, they should remove 3.15. If they don't want them, they should enforce 3.15 better by improving 3.17.

It's that simple.
It sure is. Quoted for the MF truth.
The truth will come out...

Dragonfly
Dragonfly
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Joined: 17 Mar 2008, 21:48
Location: Bulgaria

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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mep wrote: No not at all. 3.15 has absolutely noting to do with flex. It is talking about parts having degrees of freedom relative to other parts. 3.17 alone covers all the flexibility otherwise in 3.15 would be something written about flexibility which is not the case. You can forget 3.15 in this relation because it covers skirts.


You can forget "the spirit of rules". You can't even quantify this.
+1
I share the same view on both subjects.
And take spirit in moderate amounts :)
F1PitRadio ‏@F1PitRadio : MSC, "Sorry guys, there's not more in it"
Spa 2012

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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wow it does not stop...
The truth is :just because there is no hinge in the usual sense it provides exactly the equivalent of a hinged -movable -setup.so the rigidity element of the regs is valid.
You would not say the car has no moving suspension because the wishbones are mounted solidly to the tub in the case of flexures.There is no real hinge present all movement is allowed for only by bending within elastic limits of the part .

malcolm
malcolm
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Joined: 28 Aug 2008, 16:45

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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mep wrote:
malcolm wrote: However, 3.15 still states that wings shouldn't flex, and teams now have to design wings that flex. It's dead easy to make very rigid wings that barely flex at all at 350+ km/h, but now have to make wings that flex almost 20 mm at 1000 N, but far more when going 240 km/h, but not flexing too much as to scrape the ground at 300 km/h. How does that make sense?

If the FIA wants flexible wings, they should remove 3.15. If they don't want them, they should enforce 3.15 better by improving 3.17.

It's that simple.
No not at all. 3.15 has absolutely noting to do with flex. It is talking about parts having degrees of freedom relative to other parts. 3.17 alone covers all the flexibility otherwise in 3.15 would be something written about flexibility which is not the case. You can forget 3.15 in this relation because it covers skirts.
"must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car"

What does that mean to you?

To me, it means one part of the bodywork can't move in relation to another, whether by flexing, or whatever else.

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Fil
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Joined: 15 Jan 2007, 14:54
Location: Melbourne, Aus.

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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"What does that mean to you?"

Irrelevant.

The question should be, "What does that mean to the FIA?"


And for that, the answer we already know. The rule-maker & enforcer has set the precedent this (and last) year, and the rest of the teams have realised and accepted this. Why can't everyone else? ](*,)
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Richard
Richard
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Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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HampusA wrote:
There is no loophole in the rules in regards to flexible wings, it clearly states that nothing on a F1 car can flex.
In which case every part of every car is illegal because every part of every car flexes to some degree. So, to avoid that problem the rules defines allowable flex. Every car complies with the allowable flex.

Richard
Richard
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Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:
Mods should also unlock the petition thread and allow people to have a say.
We don't need two threads on the subject, this one is more than enough

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Joined: 29 Jan 2010, 11:51
Location: SU 419113

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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What is so hard to understand?

Teams are now looking at making there wings flex. Red Bull made their wing comply with 3.17, but totally ignore 3.15.
They designed their wing to flex, and in so doing they are breaking the law whilst comply with the 3.17 BYLAW.

Concrete will also flex, but the point is Red Bulls manipulation of 3.17 means they went out expressly to designing a flexing piece of bodywork.
The only cleverness is that they passed a bylaw. They still fail the actual law of "Movement" in bodywork, either visible or suspected.
More could have been done.
David Purley

andrew
andrew
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Joined: 16 Feb 2010, 15:08
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland - WhiteBlue Country (not the region)

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:
Mods should also unlock the petition thread and allow people to have a say.
No they shouldn't. The teams have accepted the Red Bull front wing and are developing their own versions. Do you really think the FIA are going to change the rules for a few armchair enthusiasts when they didn't change them for the teams?