Flexible wings 2011

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mep
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
Location: Germany

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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"must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car"

What does that mean to you?

To me, it means one part of the bodywork can't move in relation to another, whether by flexing, or whatever else

This more or less means the same as “must be rigidly secured” or doesn’t have any degree of freedom. Important is that the rule speaks about a part. It does not say every single point of a part must remain immobile. That’s how the rule should be written to be applied for flexibility but it is not. Possible the rule makers didn’t even thought about flexible parts when they made that rule and it is not even necessary because there is a own chapter in the rules covering just flexibility. By the way it wouldn’t make sense to spread this rule over several chapters of the rulebook.

But how should we handle the wording of this chapter “every part must remain immobile”?
The complete front wing including the end of the nose can be seen as single part. This complete part must be immobile to the rest of the car. This can only mean there is no movement allowed in the contact area between nose and tube. If the part changes its shape is not relevant in this context because changing of shape or flexibility is not forbidden per se. Otherwise there would be some conflict in the rulebook between 1.15 and 1.17 which is not the case because 1.15 speaks about attachment of parts and 1.17 of flexibility. Things might look different when you attach another part to the end of the frontwing. This part would in fact have some movement because the wing bends down. That would be the mass damper case. The spring is allowed but not the mass on its ends.

As you see you can easily get some conflicts with the wordings of the rule 1.15. I think this part of the rules is written very bad. So there really might be some clarification and change of this rules needed to make clear its just talking about the attachment and clarify what they understand of immobile and how they want to test it. Until now it seems some common sense has to be applied here. A screw attachment can be seen as rigid attachment even when the screw might have some minimal elongation. It’s the same as a rock can be declared incompressible/without flex even when it has some minimal compression under very high pressure. We are definitely not talking on atomic level here.

Like it is written at the moment the rule 1.15 can not be applied to flexible parts. There is the phrase: Nulla poena sine lege. No punishment without a law. It is not RedBulls fault that the rule is written badly. Isn’t it quite bad that engineers have to teach lawyers how to write proper rules? :roll:

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Joined: 29 Jan 2010, 11:51
Location: SU 419113

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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andrew wrote:
JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:
Mods should also unlock the petition thread and allow people to have a say.
No they shouldn't. The teams have accepted the Red Bull front wing and are developing their own versions. Do you really think the FIA are going to change the rules for a few armchair enthusiasts when they didn't change them for the teams?

Ok mr Mod wannabe
More could have been done.
David Purley

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Ferraripilot
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Joined: 28 Jan 2011, 16:36
Location: Atlanta

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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Although I was a hugely opposed to the RB wing, I have come to terms with it. Whiting has proved to be an enthusiastic enforcer of the rules and until he states it to be illegal we are stuck with it. I believe it's silly that nothing is really being done, but they have their reasons despite how infuriating and nonsensical it is to many fans and teams with valid contentions. Teams are working in catch-up mode to make the best out of it and hope their work to copy the technology is not in vane, by that I mean not banned for good next season.

andrew
andrew
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Joined: 16 Feb 2010, 15:08
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland - WhiteBlue Country (not the region)

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Ok mr Mod wannabe
No thanks! :lol: Talk about a thankless and endless task!

I apologise for agreeing with a mod. It shall not happen again!
Last edited by andrew on 13 May 2011, 18:26, edited 1 time in total.

speedsense
speedsense
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Joined: 31 May 2009, 19:11
Location: California, USA

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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andrew wrote:
JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Ok mr Mod wannabe
No thanks! :lol: Talk about a thankless and endless task!

I apologise for agreeing with a mod. I shall not happen again!
Uh Oh...now the posters are flexing also.... :lol: :)
"Driving a car as fast as possible (in a race) is all about maintaining the highest possible acceleration level in the appropriate direction." Peter Wright,Techical Director, Team Lotus

Cadas
Cadas
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Joined: 05 Apr 2011, 17:46

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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This has been a great thread, it went from honest debate, to conspiracy theory Inc and via all sorts of RBR v McL cock fighting, makes it a classic in many ways.

My contribution will focus on what I know, which is sod all to do with technical!

The word 'immobile' to me is the key. If a group of professional designers got together and wrote a set if rules and intended for wings to be rigid they would not have used that word......more like 'rigid', 'inflexible', ' movement limited too....' etc.

As a lawyer you could drive a coach and horses through that word. For all of those poster who say that the word 'immobile' means no flex are hoping at best.... It does not say that, period. If it was no flex, then the contradicting clause allowing 20mm flex under certain load buggers that.

So, what does 'immobile' mean. Any argument for the 'defense' would read it in conjunction with the clause about secure fixing...ie, the front section is rigidly fixed to the car, and the rest of the structure is 'immobile' meaning no flexible columns, dampers, sprung mounts, sky hooks, etc.

If you give a test for flex, you bugger up any enforcement as to no-flex.

RBR have an immobile wing that passes the flex test. And any attempt to retrospectively apply a limit on flex would, I think be open to challenge. Please think back to the double diffuser, many thought the rules made it illegal, it didn't, and f1 did not try and go after the teams that used one, they simply addressed the rules the next year.

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HampusA
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Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 14:49

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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"Any device or construction that is designed to bridge the gap between the sprung part of the car and the ground is prohibited under all circumstances."

RBR - Fail
FIA - Fail

I just find it funny that rules that were written specifically for the things RBR is doing with their front wing this year (and last year) is totally ignored by FIA.

Either you remove this whole section or you make better tests. Why should teams spend millions on something that will break the rules.

Why was Ferraris hole in the nosecone for example banned? It did not say a word about that in the rulebook, it was an honest innovation but still, because teams had to spend alot of money they removed it.

Consistency FIA, consistency..
The truth will come out...

hecti
hecti
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Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 08:34
Location: Montreal, QC

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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HampusA wrote:"Any device or construction that is designed to bridge the gap between the sprung part of the car and the ground is prohibited under all circumstances."

RBR - Fail
FIA - Fail

I just find it funny that rules that were written specifically for the things RBR is doing with their front wing this year (and last year) is totally ignored by FIA.

Either you remove this whole section or you make better tests. Why should teams spend millions on something that will break the rules.

Why was Ferraris hole in the nosecone for example banned? It did not say a word about that in the rulebook, it was an honest innovation but still, because teams had to spend alot of money they removed it.

Consistency FIA, consistency..
Congrats, you found the rule!
Now prove it, find a picture of the front wing touching the ground. I bet you cant find one.

Rob01
Rob01
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Joined: 26 May 2010, 20:37

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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Haven't you seen the crew with sandpaper taking the rough edges of the bottom where it's scraped the ground. Who needs a picture?

andrew
andrew
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Joined: 16 Feb 2010, 15:08
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland - WhiteBlue Country (not the region)

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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You know when the car is in the pits and there is a mechanic at each end with an allan key? Well apparently they are adjusting the wobbliness of the wing.

It's all so obvious! #-o

:lol:

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Joined: 29 Jan 2010, 11:51
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Re: Flexible wings 2011

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andrew wrote:You know when the car is in the pits and there is a mechanic at each end with an allan key? Well apparently they are adjusting the wobbliness of the wing.

It's all so obvious! #-o

:lol:
Thanks for that observation. What would we do without that perspective?

Rob01 is right, In Oz the mechanics were sand papering the edges of the wing as the scraping changed the aerodynaymic profile.
And to those who want a definition of flex and how to "work" around it....

Flex(def.) Pliancy, pliability, to bend or be bent, display of elasticity
More could have been done.
David Purley

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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come on there is a difference between an allowance for elasticity and a wing that is changing its angle of attack to increase downforce.
just because there is no visible bearing and rotation axle it´s not like it cannot move- just look at the flexure mounts in suspension.
I really love the evention but it does not blurr my view in terms of it being illegal and certainly not in the spirit of the rules.It may even be dangerous?

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Joined: 29 Jan 2010, 11:51
Location: SU 419113

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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marcush. wrote:It may even be dangerous?
Vettel spearing Button springs to mind. I think FOTA a treading cautiously so as not to upset the applecart. A unanimous team voice is far stronger than one without Red Bull going into concorde negotiations.
I recieved 2 very interesting emails on twitter over the weekend, one from a Journalist and the other from an "official twitter page".

Both kindly pointed me to the fact that the new concorde agreement is far more important than Red Bulls front wing behaviour(illegal IMO). In light of this, I think it even more relevant to have some sort of fan driven query as to the rules.
More could have been done.
David Purley

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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Ah.that makes sense.

Dragonfly
Dragonfly
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Joined: 17 Mar 2008, 21:48
Location: Bulgaria

Re: Flexible wings 2011

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:.............
Rob01 is right, In Oz the mechanics were sand papering the edges of the wing as the scraping changed the aerodynaymic profile.
And to those who want a definition of flex and how to "work" around it....

Flex(def.) Pliancy, pliability, to bend or be bent, display of elasticity
I've never heard about restoring lost material by sanding the worn out part ...
because to restore the profile you have to replace the missing amount of material.
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