How does Vettel compare to other drivers?

[PlatinumZealot]

I don't see how you can compare him with Alonso. Button possible but no way with Alonso.

I don't understand? They did race in the same machinery in 2007, how do we not have a basis to compare Alonso and Hamilton?

No rookie will beat or nearly beat a team mate of Alonso's calibre in equal machinery. Also consider the amount of time and money invested in Hamilton by McLaren, Ron Dennis couldn't afford to have Hamilton fail (just a theory but it makes perfect sense).

Alonso was short changed at McLaren in 2007, there is no doubt about that. I don't like they guy but he does not strike me as the sort of person to turn his back on a challenge.

How does this make a Rookie out qualify a 2XWDC over a whole season? He must be a six million dollar man.

Then again there were rumours flying about that Alonso the 2XWDC was brought into Mclaren only to test this "project" called Hamilton. The experiment was conclusive, and so there was no need to continue by the end of the season, the gearbox of the number 2 mclaren was shut off in Brazil. Simulation over.

[rfs]

Here's a question: what was Seb's racecraft like at Toro Rosso? I wasn't following F1 very closely in 2008 but he scored a lot of points that year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_2008#Drivers. Did he do much overtaking back then? Even if he didn't he still got good results.

EDIT: Can we not discuss Alonso/Hamilton/Mclaren 2007 please? People are never going to agree on that so lets not even bother trying.

[beelsebob]

I don't see how you can compare him with Alonso. Button possible but no way with Alonso.

I don't understand? They did race in the same machinery in 2007, how do we not have a basis to compare Alonso and Hamilton?

No rookie will beat or nearly beat a team mate of Alonso's calibre in equal machinery. Also consider the amount of time and money invested in Hamilton by McLaren, Ron Dennis couldn't afford to have Hamilton fail (just a theory but it makes perfect sense).

Alonso was short changed at McLaren in 2007, there is no doubt about that. I don't like they guy but he does not strike me as the sort of person to turn his back on a challenge.

Really? He strikes me as exactly the sort of guy who would do that. Exactly the sort of guy that would expect his {rookie | not so rookie} team mate to be asked to move out of his way just to stroke his ego.

[andrew]

How does this make a Rookie out qualify a 2XWDC over a whole season? He must be a six million dollar man.

Very easily. I don't believe for a minute that both cars were equal.

It was actually 9:8 to Hamilton and even then one of these was due to Alonso's gearbox failing. Hardly conclusive.

[beelsebob]

How does this make a Rookie out qualify a 2XWDC over a whole season? He must be a six million dollar man.

Very easily. I don't believe for a minute that both cars were equal.

It was actually 9:8 to Hamilton and even then one of these was due to Alonso's gearbox failing. Hardly conclusive.

Really? You honestly think McLaren would deliberately scupper their chances at getting their constructors championship payout because what... They didn't like the guy they'd just hired to drive for them?

I'm sorry, but if that's true then RedBull's front wing has a heating element to make it flex, and a perpetual motion machine to generate the heat.

[andrew]

I believe that one driver was favoured over the other however the order of the favouring went against the grain.

[beelsebob]

I believe that one driver was favoured over the other however the order of the favouring went against the grain.

Given Alonso's attitude at Ferrari, and whining whenever something goes Massa's way, I'd suggest it's closer to simply Alonso did a lot of whining because he did a lot of losing. He felt that he should be favoured as a non-rookie, and wasn't.

[LionKing]

Actually Webber has more incidents in races compared to Vettel last year but people seems to forget.

He hit Hamilton in Australia put him to spin at the end of the race.
Hamilton and Webber incident in Signapore and Hamilton DNF
Vettel and Webber incidence in Turkey, Vettel DNF.
Rear-ended Truli in Valencia, both DNF...
Spun car in Korea in wet and also ended Rosberg's race.

Hamilton ended the race of 3 cars in pits during Canada 08. He hit Massa in Monza last year and caused his own DNF. To single out Vettel and saying things like crash kid is a bit injustice.

My favorite driver is not Vettel but I find some claims about him are really absurd like he did not deserve last years championship. He did not set a foot wrong in Abu Dhabi and well deserved the race win..He managed to overcome 3 victories lost to mechanical problems during the campaign.

[beelsebob]

Actually Webber has more incidents in races compared to Vettel last year but people seems to forget.

He hit Hamilton in Australia put him to spin at the end of the race.
Hamilton and Webber incident in Signapore and Hamilton DNF
Vettel and Webber incidence in Turkey, Vettel DNF.
Rear-ended Truli in Valencia, both DNF...
Spun car in Korea in wet and also ended Rosberg's race.

Hamilton ended the race of 3 cars in pits during Canada 08. He hit Massa in Monza last year and caused his own DNF. To single out Vettel and saying things like crash kid is a bit injustice.

My favorite driver is not Vettel but I find some claims about him are really absurd like he did not deserve last years championship. He did not set a foot wrong in Abu Dhabi and well deserved the race win..He managed to overcome 3 victories lost to mechanical problems during the campaign.

I think what people are looking at when they label him the crash kid is not his absolute number of crashes, but his ratio of crashes to times in proximity to other cars.

[raymondu999]

Here's a question: what was Seb's racecraft like at Toro Rosso? I wasn't following F1 very closely in 2008 but he scored a lot of points that year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_2008#Drivers. Did he do much overtaking back then? Even if he didn't he still got good results.

EDIT: Can we not discuss Alonso/Hamilton/Mclaren 2007 please? People are never going to agree on that so lets not even bother trying.

I don't remember specifics, but his 2008 season was filled with average qually and great races. 17-4 in China, 19-5 (or something like that) in Monaco; etc.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

'07 – First year in F1, nearly won the championship.
'08 – Did win it.
'09 – Didn't have "cracking machinery" by any stretch of the imagination.
'10 – Had a decidedly subpar car but still came within 16 points of the title.

Basically, Hamilton has had a "monster of a car" twice, and won the championship (or come very very close in his rookie year)... But still been extremely close to the title even when he hasn't had the best car under him. I'm not sure you can say the same for Vettel.

Really?
2009 he was second behind the brawn of button.
2010 he's WDC
2011 he's leading by 40 odd points after 4 rounds
I would call that far more imressive considering he never had a top drive until 2009

And he started at torro rosso.... Not McLaren.

[beelsebob]

'07 – First year in F1, nearly won the championship.
'08 – Did win it.
'09 – Didn't have "cracking machinery" by any stretch of the imagination.
'10 – Had a decidedly subpar car but still came within 16 points of the title.

Basically, Hamilton has had a "monster of a car" twice, and won the championship (or come very very close in his rookie year)... But still been extremely close to the title even when he hasn't had the best car under him. I'm not sure you can say the same for Vettel.

Really?
2009 he was second behind the brawn of button.
2010 he's WDC
2011 he's leading by 40 odd points after 4 rounds
I would call that far more imressive considering he never had a top drive until 2009 And he started at torro rosso.... Not McLaren.

Uhh? You think that winning exactly when he has a top drive is far more impressive than winning exactly when you have a top drive?

[Giblet]

Actually Webber has more incidents in races compared to Vettel last year but people seems to forget.

He hit Hamilton in Australia put him to spin at the end of the race.
Hamilton and Webber incident in Signapore and Hamilton DNF
Vettel and Webber incidence in Turkey, Vettel DNF.
Rear-ended Truli in Valencia, both DNF...
Spun car in Korea in wet and also ended Rosberg's race.

Hamilton ended the race of 3 cars in pits during Canada 08. He hit Massa in Monza last year and caused his own DNF. To single out Vettel and saying things like crash kid is a bit injustice.

My favorite driver is not Vettel but I find some claims about him are really absurd like he did not deserve last years championship. He did not set a foot wrong in Abu Dhabi and well deserved the race win..He managed to overcome 3 victories lost to mechanical problems during the campaign.

Hmm not sure anyone is denying that other people haven't made silly mistakes. What is being said (by me at least) is that Vettel has not proved his racecraft like they all have. To me his teammate seems to be a better racer, if only because I have clearly seen him cut through the field and pull some brilliant maneuvers.

Now with the DRS, Vettel has a tool to overcome his implied inability (again by me) to pass very well.

[PlatinumZealot]

'07 – First year in F1, nearly won the championship.
'08 – Did win it.
'09 – Didn't have "cracking machinery" by any stretch of the imagination.
'10 – Had a decidedly subpar car but still came within 16 points of the title.

Basically, Hamilton has had a "monster of a car" twice, and won the championship (or come very very close in his rookie year)... But still been extremely close to the title even when he hasn't had the best car under him. I'm not sure you can say the same for Vettel.

Really?
2009 he was second behind the brawn of button.
2010 he's WDC
2011 he's leading by 40 odd points after 4 rounds
I would call that far more imressive considering he never had a top drive until 2009

And he started at torro rosso.... Not McLaren.

So? He and Hamilton are just a few months apart in experience... He took TWO more years than Hamilton to win the WDC... and he only won in dominant machinery and a fumbling teammate.

2007... decent points finishes

2008 - closely matched by Bourdais - no real competition - A sneak away win in Monza

2009 - He had the best car for at least 11 races- no rival but old Webbo- He still didn't win..

2010 - Best car for the whole season - No direct rivals in sight... won in the final race pole to flag against fumbling "challengers."

2011 - A rocket ship for the third time in a row - Running away with it - still no rivals in sight.

[HampusA]

I believe that one driver was favoured over the other however the order of the favouring went against the grain.

Same as Senna was favoured against Prost aswell depsite two championships being determined at the last race?

About Vettel being the better hotlapper then the above guys. We don´t know yet.
When you have a car that is soo good and so stable, it´s easy to pull of quick laps.
When the car isn´t really there in performance you try to correct that in other areas like braking etc which hightens the risk of damaging your lap.
But when you have a car that is on rails it´s pretty easy to do solid laps.

Not saying he´s not a good hotlapper, i think that´s his strongest attribute for sure.
Until they match him with another top driver we really can´t say who is the fastest guy until we have it on paper.
Hamilton and Alonso is pretty much equal but goes about things in different ways with different attributes. Cars were exactly the same just like Senna/Prost days.
If they weren´t, they would not be so close to each other at the end of the year.

Now that i think about it, they are pretty similar to Senna and Prost..