Simulator technology

[Tim.Wright]

No, its for setup and new design testing.

Like JT said, its not useful for any optimisation routines because its too slow.

tim

[marcush.]

I think you have a misconception about these drivers.they don´t need to learn how to go quick .It´s their main talent .So you can learn not much about driving as a real good one..It might be useful to prepare for all the proceedures and routines ,yes ..but even setup ...holy --- they drive anything to the limit.If you simulate things and feedback and it does not match the real thing (it can´t as the physics are different )you will stagnate and maybe sensibilise yourself for things that are simply not there in the real world.You might be able to decide what you like and what you don´t but I go with JT there .If you can simulate the cars behaviour and optimise then putting the driver in the loop is not really performance relevant and just another road where you might get lost spending money at a huge rate.

[beelsebob]

I think you have a misconception about these drivers.they don´t need to learn how to go quick .

I think you're the one with the misconception – if you think they can immediately go quick on tracks, from a car with a viewpoint that usually doesn't even let them see the corner apexes, you've got another thing coming.

[HampusA]

No, its for setup and new design testing.

Like JT said, its not useful for any optimisation routines because its too slow.

tim

No simulators where the driver is present is for training.

[Caito]

In the redbull series videos they said "the optimal, fastest setup would make for an undriveable car, it would be very difficult to predict". So in that sense a driver in the loop is necessary. They also said that to test different steering ratios, they said you can't change the way(speed, etc) a driver moves the steering. So you can have different (even progressive, etc) steering ratios. A driver would also be needed there.


But for most purposes. You'd be better without the driver. Chassis sim, for example. You have a problem in a certain corner, you go to the sim, and can do 2312 tests in 2min and know which would be the best way to solve the problem.

So, it's even to me. Sometimes you need the driver, sometimes you don't-

[marcush.]

I think you have a misconception about these drivers.they don´t need to learn how to go quick .

I think you're the one with the misconception – if you think they can immediately go quick on tracks, from a car with a viewpoint that usually doesn't even let them see the corner apexes, you've got another thing coming.

Boy..you would not believe what a touringcar driver is able to seewhen sitting in his car.You just don´t need to see what is direct in front of you your view is a long way forward in racing...
Learning tracks and all this is of NO importance when you got talent.even on the Nordschleife the good guys are on the pace instantly when the amateurs need 100+ laps to learn their ways and still have no real clue.
A former Rallye driver once said:circuit racing is boring ..you arrive at the same corner every 2Minutes ...where is the challenge ?The same driver came out of a special stage in the morning and told me there was 2 tenths he lost in one corner ....tell you what he improved his stage time by exactly those two tenths in the second round and shrugged and said I knew it was two tenth quicker ,no need to drive it two times.
Do you really think you could learn how to drive quick around something like Barcelona in a video game? Loosers like us behind the wheel can practise and improve quite a lot no question but realistically we could practise for years and still would not be able to post a time worth P1.It´s not like these guys have not raced for their entire life already so ...

[HampusA]

track time is very valuable. Having done 200 laps at Barcelona before even going to the event is a HUGE bonus.

These are laserscanned tracks so every bump, every kerb, everything that is there in real life is there in the game.

I´m assuming this rallye driver was God himself or he was running at optimal of his pontential at every corner. BS..

[HampusA]

Also, did you know that Sutil is a simracer who races alot on his free time like during the winter?

Hamilton has raced in iRacing aswell. And i remember seeing a pic of Piquet JR with his own cockpit in Monaco etc.

[marcush.]

Sutil did not even realise when his team put a set of mixed tyres on his car...and he admitted to it publicly on german tv.....I´m not sure what to think of him.He seems not one of the drivers who is very sensitive if he is not able to differntiate a tyre set with two primes and two option tyres.
If all the laps were so important for the driver how on earth can Vettel leave out a whole day of FP and still go on as if nothing happened in the race?
Why would any team rob a driver of a free practise session and give it to a 3rd driver? The driving itself is what it is .You don´t need 200laps to get everything out of your car.The mileage is there to asess all the options in car setup and possible ways of treating your material (tyres) ,getting all the detail information of how things behave under different conditons impossible to simulate as the base for the simulation does not exist you have to create this database by running the car around the track...
Also it is a fact that all the real talented drivers jumped into F1 machnery and were instantly competitive.First time carbon brakes first time 1000HP ,who cares..Alesi ,who did not have a championship in him did jump in the Tyrrell without even a seatfitting or evenm knowing the day before he was on for a F1 race and scored points on his debut...Schumacher jumped into the Jordan in Silverstone and went instantly quicker than anyone in that car after 3 or 4 laps...and went through Eau rouge flat out in lap 2 or something ..a track he never saw before that weekend...the driver does not need the practise when he has made it to F1 he can drive anything to the limit (and not above).
For sure an average talent can practise and get a decent time in a sim as well as in reality but the last second will not materialise if you are not a big talent in reality.

[HampusA]

it's not about getting any quicker... it's purely about track time.

[Jersey Tom]

If it's not about getting faster, then what's the point?

To your earlier point though, regarding iRacing... I'm aware that Dave et all have spent some time at Calspan and developed some new tire model. Just because it's something new, doesn't mean it's good - or great. Guess it comes down to what they're trying to capture, be it absolutes or relatives, both or neither.

[HampusA]

Track time.

the tire model is something never done before he thinks.
Check vimeo.com and search for dave kaemmer. it's a good video to watch if you have some time to kill.

basically it's a mathematical model that simulates pretty much everything a tire goes through in dry, sunny weather.

[Jersey Tom]

I've seen it. Makes a lot of lofty claims, no real detail. Meh.

I've seen and worked with ridiculous amounts of tire data, tire models, etc. Plenty of folks claim they have something awesome. Usually not the case.

[RacingManiac]

We actually just got an in-house hexapod simulator in our engineering office. We do a lot of ride and handling system development and we are using it as an intermediary step for subjective ride evaluation. We can input recorded event from cars and our hardware capability and try to do control system tuning in the sim. In cases like ours this saves some money in terms of proving ground work.....

In terms of what race team does with their driver-in-loop sim. I think its more to validate the sim work without the driver and to get another data point in validating the model before actually putting wheels on the ground and drive. The computational iterative capability without the driver is much faster, but this I think just have the driver putting some final stamps down on their track program before they actually get there....You can't really say it has no value or else why teams put so much effort in developing them....its not as if they are charging money to public as an amusement park ride.

[HampusA]

I've seen it. Makes a lot of lofty claims, no real detail. Meh.

I've seen and worked with ridiculous amounts of tire data, tire models, etc. Plenty of folks claim they have something awesome. Usually not the case.

Why would he explain in detail on how he did it? That´s like a company giving away their secret before they have released their own product.

Well many people have "worked" with that, have you built a tire model this advanced?
Do you know any company that has done this themselves?