Simulator technology

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
DaveKillens
DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Re: F1 Simulator - Robot Arm

Post

During my tenure working for the government, I had access to a lot of research institutes in the Toronto area. And I've seen some pretty interesting simulators. From the rotating arm G-simulator to detailed cockpits bolted to the floor. They each serve a specific and different purpose.

The same goes with racing simulation technology. We have the 7 post rig that is designed to replicate what the car suspension experiences to full motion driver simulators that are really good at giving the driver an experience as realistic as possible, but worth little in returning valid data for the engineers.

It wasn't many years ago when a driver wasn't expected to do well at the first time at any track. The consensus was that it took the first year of competition for a driver to learn the tracks. As well, one time-honored tradition is for drivers to walk the track, Many times while camping at Mosport I would see drivers wandering up and down the track, in company with other drivers or engineers, walking around, viewing corners from all angles, working out the lines and looking for anything that may be a hindrance, or allow better lap times.

I agree that Formula One drivers can learn a track and know how to get the quickest time out of a track in an incredibly short time. But even with them, every bit helps.

I've done countless laps in my PC racing simulators, and it's my belief and conclusion that simulators allow the driver to learn a lot about a track long before he arrives there in person. From being made aware at just how tight and tricky the entrance to the pits at Turkey are to where to pick up your braking points at Les Combes, it all adds to the pool of driver knowledge. And if a driver can pick this up long before the actual race, it makes him better prepared and free to tackle and learn other issues while at the track. You want the driver to learn at a rate that allows him to process the information and benefit from it, and not to drink from the firehose. At the track you want him to succeed. In the simulator you want him to learn.

For most of us mortals, what we think of simulators is the wheel and pedals in front of a computer monitor. Maybe the pumped-up rig first displayed on this thread. But for the serious professional, simulator technology is a disciplined science, and provides valid feedback as well as teaching the driver.

When Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger put his plane down in the Hudson, a good part of his success was because he had practiced and learned a lot of procedures relevant to the emergency, in a simulator.

The first Canadian military pilot squad to win the team trophy in the American Top Gun competition had never previously fired a real missile. All their training was on simulators.

Jacques Villeneuve set pole position for his first ever Grand Prix at the fabled and daunting Spa Circuit in Belgium, partly based on previous experience gained on his video game.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: F1 Simulator - Robot Arm

Post

HampusA wrote:Well many people have "worked" with that, have you built a tire model this advanced?
Yes, I have. Building race tire performance models is part of my job.
Do you know any company that has done this themselves?
Yes, many.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

User avatar
HampusA
0
Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 14:49

Re: F1 Simulator - Robot Arm

Post

Well what companies?
And care to elaborate on your own builds? Did it take 3 years of extensive reading in physics of tires etc etc to create one model?
How much of it did you actually simulate?

Btw, just saw this,

Yesterday I spent the day in the simulator driving Barcelona and think I completed more laps than I did in winter testing!! - Button.
Useless piece of equipment isn´t it? :) Former Champion must do some simulator training..
The truth will come out...

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: F1 Simulator - Robot Arm

Post

I spent 3.5 years as an engineer at a very large, very prominent tire company. I would say my exposure to tire mechanics / physics and data has been pretty good. I did some work with tire data in college, and it's now a main focus of my work on a race team. I have been fortunate (or unfortunate!) enough to have seen literally millions of dollars worth of data over a handful of years.

Can't disclose the specifics of what various tire models do well, don't do well, and don't even need to do well. Suffice to say there are MANY race teams, affiliates, independent organizations, who all have various flavors of tire models for their specific needs. Not saying the new iRacing tire model is bad... I'm sure Dave did a good job of it... just never really said what's so great about it, nor how well it is validated, etc. The needs of a sim game are very different in some respects to the needs of a race team.

In any event, I stand very firmly behind my belief that as a technical development tool, driver-in-the-loop sims are of limited utility. If Jenson did a million sim laps... good for him. I don't particularly care. Even as a simulation engineer, I'm just not that interested as there is time and money better spent on other things.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: F1 Simulator - Robot Arm

Post

Well, tyre models have become much popular since the end of the 90's, I'd say, as a complete aficionado. I know very old tyre models, very simple, but models in the end, that I use routinely (only as a person that applies them) for things as diverse as modeling suspensions to modeling road noise. These are civil engineer models (let's say that the most complex operation is a multiplication, exaggerating a bit).

I take the chance to say this: I would love for JTom to comment if Bo Person really did a breakthrough in tyre modeling (for adhesion only, but including all the resiliency thing and the heat transfer) and if this has inspired something or not: at least I swallowed the whole story.

I would also like to add that any new model has its merits. Of course, for professionals only models accepted by the community are valid. , I think this explains the difference in responses to the model posted (which I haven't reviewed at all, I confess, I'll do it in a minute), so, in my style, please, relax, girls.

Anyway, for most of us, any contribution is valid, if only because it takes us to look for more complicated answers. That's the least you do as a professional: point people in the right direction, ehem.
Ciro

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Re: F1 Simulator - Robot Arm

Post

Jersey Tom wrote:In any event, I stand very firmly behind my belief that as a technical development tool, driver-in-the-loop sims are of limited utility.
That, I agree on wholeheartledy.

Let's face it for driver training and education they have a purpose. And of course, who wouldn't want to ride one of these cool toys? And that's the real kicker, they do not simulate accurately, they only fool the driver's brain and body into believing that it's real.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: F1 Simulator - Robot Arm

Post

Ciro Pabón wrote:I take the chance to say this: I would love for JTom to comment if Bo Person really did a breakthrough in tyre modeling (for adhesion only, but including all the resiliency thing and the heat transfer) and if this has inspired something or not: at least I swallowed the whole story.
Not sure. With the iRacing thing, at least in the video I watched... they talked a lot, but didn't say much. I didn't really catch what was supposed to be so special.

This is actually a pretty decent primer on tire models. It's a 2D space. On one axis you have the option for analytical or empirical (or some blend), and on the other is the choice of simple and fast (better than real time), or complex and slow (not even near real time).

Creating some elaborate model really isn't even that difficult. Getting good data to make it work... that takes some time. I think that's one thing the iRacing folks have done a good job of, including spending time at TIRF, testing a variety of tires, and working with some sharp engineers. In the iRacingTV interview with Dave regarding their model development you'll notice Doug Milliken in some of the photos they show, as well as a very sharp tire/sim guy who I've worked with.. who is now one of my competitors!
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

User avatar
HampusA
0
Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 14:49

Re: F1 Simulator - Robot Arm

Post

Jersey Tom wrote:I spent 3.5 years as an engineer at a very large, very prominent tire company. I would say my exposure to tire mechanics / physics and data has been pretty good. I did some work with tire data in college, and it's now a main focus of my work on a race team. I have been fortunate (or unfortunate!) enough to have seen literally millions of dollars worth of data over a handful of years.

Can't disclose the specifics of what various tire models do well, don't do well, and don't even need to do well. Suffice to say there are MANY race teams, affiliates, independent organizations, who all have various flavors of tire models for their specific needs. Not saying the new iRacing tire model is bad... I'm sure Dave did a good job of it... just never really said what's so great about it, nor how well it is validated, etc. The needs of a sim game are very different in some respects to the needs of a race team.

In any event, I stand very firmly behind my belief that as a technical development tool, driver-in-the-loop sims are of limited utility. If Jenson did a million sim laps... good for him. I don't particularly care. Even as a simulation engineer, I'm just not that interested as there is time and money better spent on other things.
Ok so first you say:
"I've seen it. Makes a lot of lofty claims, no real detail. Meh."

Then you can´t even go into the subject yourself? What tire company did you work for? Confidental files?

Were they mathematical tire models or were there just tire tests done, then read the graphs of the tire and put into a program?
Could you take your tire model, change tread, stiffness of sidewalls to make it fit a new tire your team has gotten for your car?
How much did it actually simulate, how do you actually have to simulate?

Sim game ultimately is very similar to a race teams. Sim creators are bridging the gap between the real world and the virtual one. To do this, you need to have a proper tire model that works over the limit which not many sims do.
Mclaren Electronics Systems will provide their telemetry system used in NASCAR & F1 for example.

Then why would he do alot of laps? technical development? If the driver isn´t needed unless it´s just to verify the setup that took 2 sek to do by the computer then why did he do so many laps?
Could it be because he needs track time? Especially now that blown diffusers have been detuned some.

I also think Vettel did so good at Turkey because he had done alot of laps in the simulator beofore the weekend. This allowed him to get with business as soon as the car was ready.
Track time is valuable, there is no question about it.

Btw, what race team do you work for and what series do you run in?
The truth will come out...

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: F1 Simulator - Robot Arm

Post

DaveKillens wrote:
Jersey Tom wrote:In any event, I stand very firmly behind my belief that as a technical development tool, driver-in-the-loop sims are of limited utility.
That, I agree on wholeheartledy.

Let's face it for driver training and education they have a purpose. And of course, who wouldn't want to ride one of these cool toys? And that's the real kicker, they do not simulate accurately, they only fool the driver's brain and body into believing that it's real.
So I have heard of very rare occasions drivers getting seasick from their own driving (usually has to do with some malfunction of the inner ear or driving in the dark).But a lot if not all drivers suffer bad nausea in simulators ,vomitting after very short time repeatedly...must be something of the body realising that this is not real...so you are teaching your body NOT to hear on some feelings`? what if exactly those fealings were useful or even necessary for you to exploit the full potential of the car?

User avatar
HampusA
0
Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 14:49

Re: F1 Simulator - Robot Arm

Post

marcush. wrote:But a lot if not all drivers suffer bad nausea in simulators ,vomitting after very short time repeatedly
Source?
The truth will come out...

Richard
Richard
Moderator
Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: F1 Simulator - Robot Arm

Post

So can we conclude:

Driver in loop - useful educational tool for the driver, some feedback to designers about diver/car/track interaction, time limited for exploring permutations

Driver out of loop - able to undertake zillions of laps using zillions of permutations.

Obviously a good tyre simulator is beneficial for both the above. IRacing is using an updated tyre simulator model that improves the driver in loop simulator experience. Other tyre simulators are available that have their pros & cons and are more or less suited to driver in loop and out of loop simulators.

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: F1 Simulator - Robot Arm

Post

HampusA wrote:Ok so first you say:
"I've seen it. Makes a lot of lofty claims, no real detail. Meh."

Then you can´t even go into the subject yourself?
Correct, though the difference is iRacing is trying to sell a product. I am trying to win races. They need marketing points. If I'm going to buy 'X', I want to know what's special about it.
Were they mathematical tire models or were there just tire tests done, then read the graphs of the tire and put into a program?
Could you take your tire model, change tread, stiffness of sidewalls to make it fit a new tire your team has gotten for your car?
How much did it actually simulate, how do you actually have to simulate?
Not going to answer this. Yes, it is confidential information.
Sim game ultimately is very similar to a race teams.
Requirements are completely different.
What tire company did you work for?

Btw, what race team do you work for and what series do you run in?
My location should give a pretty good hint as to what series I support, and the tire company I came from. If you look around, you can figure out more. All opinions expressed by me are solely my own, and in no way represent the company views of my current or previous employers.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

User avatar
HampusA
0
Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 14:49

Re: F1 Simulator - Robot Arm

Post

well iracing has competitors just like you do. so it would be wrong of you in my opinion to rubbish DK like that when he has clear reasons not to talk about it before it's even released.

well i guess this conversation ends here, i'm sure you know what you talk about and work with what you do but to me it doesn't really mean anything because you can't even talk about the subject which i'm sure is not decided by you.
The truth will come out...

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: F1 Simulator - Robot Arm

Post

HampusA wrote:
marcush. wrote:But a lot if not all drivers suffer bad nausea in simulators ,vomitting after very short time repeatedly
Source?

just inform yourself ..one of the gurus of Simulator work -Geoff Brabham -did write about his nausea ,Alexander Wurz as well ..if I´m correct most people cannot stand it for much longer than 20 minutes.
http://worldsportnews.co.cc/f1-wirth-si ... -overcome/
http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 12701.html

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: F1 Simulator - Robot Arm

Post

HampusA wrote:well iracing has competitors just like you do. so it would be wrong of you in my opinion to rubbish DK like that when he has clear reasons not to talk about it before it's even released.
Not "rubbishing" anyone. But there's no sense in everyone running around jerking each other off to the "new tire model" as if it's going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. Are there more detailed and complex tire models out there? Absolutely. By orders of magnitude. Similarly, are there much more simple and incomplete ones? Sure.

iRacing does have competitors. The way you outsell your competitors is by marketing your strengths. "Come buy our service! We have temperature effects! Grip degradation! Transients!" To date, all they've said is that some new model is coming... and they've worked a long time on it... but doesn't really say where the improvement is or what it is.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.