Does a tyre produce downforce?

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
User avatar
amouzouris
105
Joined: 14 Feb 2011, 20:21

Does a tyre produce downforce?

Post

I was thinking...Does a tyre produce downforce? as the tyre is spinning it is forcing more air faster to go below the tyre so that air must be low pressured air...

Caito
Caito
13
Joined: 16 Jun 2009, 05:30
Location: Switzerland

Re: Does a tyre produce downforce?

Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsQcPNCm0_8


If I'm not mistaken, tires generate lift, and lots of drag.
Come back 747, we miss you!!

User avatar
amouzouris
105
Joined: 14 Feb 2011, 20:21

Re: Does a tyre produce downforce?

Post

oh..ok! thank you!

User avatar
strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Does a tyre produce downforce?

Post

LIFT
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

User avatar
godlameroso
309
Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Does a tyre produce downforce?

Post

The louvers that you see on almost all fenders of LMP cars are there so that the air moved by the tire doesn't increase the pressure of the wheel well. Tires spinning causes turbulence, drag, and lift.
Saishū kōnā

Caito
Caito
13
Joined: 16 Jun 2009, 05:30
Location: Switzerland

Re: Does a tyre produce downforce?

Post

Actually I think that if you isolate the tire from the road, just hold it in the air. The tire spinning forward would move downards. Similar as would happen with the Top Spin in a tennis, baseball, ping pong, etc ball. Thus generating downforce, but that's never the situation.
Come back 747, we miss you!!

User avatar
HampusA
0
Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 14:49

Re: Does a tyre produce downforce?

Post

wet and inters destroy the air even more (obviously)
that's why we never see aero tests done with the above even in rain.
The truth will come out...

Robbobnob
Robbobnob
33
Joined: 21 May 2010, 04:03
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: Does a tyre produce downforce?

Post

the spinning wheel causes a high pressure area to build up infront of the tire and a pocket of low pressure behind the tire. As the air cannot move under the tire (well in normal circumstances) this high pressure area at the front causes flow to accelerate over the top and into the low pressure area causing a lower pressure on the top surface of the wheel causing lift.

However i am not sure how the wing of current f1 cars will effect this. I believe the red bull front wing is the most efficient at developing flow over their font tire, Regardless of its flexing ability
"I continuously go further and further learning about my own limitations, my body limitations, psychological limitations. It's a way of life for me." - Ayrton Senna

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
35
Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Does a tyre produce downforce?

Post

This paper should answer the question:

Structure and Vortex Dynamics in the Wake of a Formula 1 Tire

John Axerio, Gianluca Iaccarino
Center for Turbulence Research, Department of Mechanical Engineering, Stanford University, CA

Emin Issakhanian, Kin Lo, Chris Elkins, John Eaton
Department of Mechanical Engineering, Stanford University, CA

For front wing interaction maybe:

CRANFIELD TEAM F1:
THE FRONT WING

F MORTEL


Brian

User avatar
strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Does a tyre produce downforce?

Post

To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Does a tyre produce downforce?

Post

Thanks, hardingfv32, strad.

I couldn't find anything about the effective force on the wheel in that paper. Of course, I'm into the aerodynamic pithecanthropus group in this forum, always erectus.

Anway, I found this graph in the paper. So, I thought, hey, lets give it a try.

This graph is definitely funny. The huge area of great speed on top of the wheel, well, doesn't exist. There is a huge buildup of air in front! In top front, if you get my drift, aerodynamically speaking.

I haven't realized that, after 40 years of thinking about racing. The top front of the wheel goes against the wind! Like Bob Dylan!

So, I took the picture in that paper that showed air speed around the wheel. Like all pictures made by aerodynamicists, it uses a colour palette designed by old hippies.

Psychodelic wheel showing airspeed. Red is 20 m/s, yellow is 15 m/s, green is 10 m/s, cyan is 5 and blue is zero. Lucy in the sky with diamonds...
Image

I copied and pasted it into AutoCad (yeah, I know. I still have my slide rule, so what?) and made arcs around the wheel, in blue, cyan, green, yellow and red, according to the colour of the air on the edge of the wheel. I apologize profusely to those who are trying to read this post in the middle of a hangover. Don't. You could make a T-shirt with this picture and many people would ask you if you like mandalas.

There are arcs here, even if you don't see them
Image

Then I deleted the picture and scaled the image to 66 cm in diameter. This is what I ended with:

I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round. This is the air speed around the wheel. Red is fast, blue is slow (stagnant)
Image

So, I calculated the pressure on each arc. Easy. The drop from atmospheric pressure is equal to the density of air times the difference of the square of velocities halved. This is what I got after typing that simple formula and looking up in AutoCAD the length of each arc.

Assumptions I made (boring! boring! skip this part! go to the next image!): at 0 m/s of air speed, pressure is 101 kPa. The drop in pressure is (where rho is air density, v2 and v1 are speeds in meters per second):

Delta P = rho/2 * (v2^2-v1^2)

For example, for 20 meters per second, I get a pressure of

P = 101000 Pa - 1.2 kg/m3/2 * ((20 m/s)^2 - (0 m/s)^2) = 100520 Pa

The force of air is simply the length of each arc multiplied by the width of the tyre, to get the area in square meters and then multiplied by the air pressure.

Force on each arc. Wheels are 0.335 m wide, that is, Formula One front tyres
Image

So, it was very simple to draw a line from the middle of each arc to the center of the wheel with a length proportional to force. Like this.

Now magenta enters the picture (yuck!). Each line pointing to the center is proportional to the force in the segment of the wheel
Image

Then, I added all the forces as vectors, that is, I moved each line to the end of the previous one. End result of forces is this:

Downforce! It's alive, Igor, it's aliiiiive!
Image

The white arrow in the previous image shows a downforce of... lemme see... more or less... what? 8.3 kilonewtons? That's like 800 kilos on each tyre? Oh...my... I discovered the new ground effect!

Unga, unga! (that's pithecanthropian for "eureka!").

Why? After doing all this it dawned upon me that I considered that there is no air pressure UNDER the wheel. At all. If I have made the same analysis with a static wheel, not moving at all I would also have gotten a downforce!

However, the more I thought about it, the more it seemed plausible. The patch is effectively sealed from atmospheric pressure, that's undeniable, at least to me and at least for the moment.

The net force of the air "on top" of the wheel must be compensated by an increment in pressure from the asphalt on the patch, sure, the wheel is not going to sink into the ground, but this patch force is not caused by air! So, my conclusion is that the air is always exerting downforce on any wheel of any car, even when parked.

If this is not true for some reason, then at least is a good quiz for Aerodynamics 101... "Explain why air doesn't exert downforce on a parked car".

This conclusion must be so wrong in so many ways that I decided to include a blue segment under the wheel.

I made it horizontal, as the patch, and measured its length. Then I added one more line to the graph. This is the "alternative ending", assuming that somehow the air "filters" under the tyre and actually exerts pressure (which at the moment I doubt ;)).

Either the car sinks or the car floats! There is no middle ground in this post! Colombia is passion! More exclamation signs!!!!
Image

The problem (huge problem!) I have is the magnitude of the force. It's 6.3 kilonewtons. That's like 600 kilos! I refuse to believe the air pressure caused by air speed equals 2.5 Tons for the four wheels.

I apologize in advance for the many hands that must be palming the many foreheads of as many aerodynamicists in the forum.

Anyway, guys, please, explain to me all the wrong assumptions I made in the Pithecanthropian language instead of explaining them in English, will ya?

Raise one finger for "you're wrong", two for "your so wrong" and three for "I cannot believe how wrong you are".
Last edited by Ciro Pabón on 20 May 2011, 02:58, edited 4 times in total.
Ciro

Caito
Caito
13
Joined: 16 Jun 2009, 05:30
Location: Switzerland

Re: Does a tyre produce downforce?

Post

I don't know where you are wrong.


I do support the theory saying the if a wheel is put on the ground, static, there would be net downforce produced by the air around it.


Air would excert a 1atm pressure over the cylinder(assuming wheel is a cylinder), the force would be radial. If the wheel is hanging in the air, net force would be 0 (negletcting the difference in pressure due to the upper part o the wheel being higher than the lower part). But if you put the wheel on the ground then no (air)pressure would be acting on the contact patch, hence downforce, which is exactly what ciro said(if I understood correctly)
Come back 747, we miss you!!

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
35
Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Does a tyre produce downforce?

Post

This paper shows pressure. I do not retain links, only PDF's. The unshrouded discussion is on point.

Cranfield University

Carlos Arranz de Blas

CFD Analysis of Air Flow within a Front Wheel Cavity

School of Engineering MSc.


Brian

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Does a tyre produce downforce?

Post

So, how large it is? You can raise as many fingers as coconuts it weighs. For the life of me, I cannot find the figure, at least in the first paper, so I go now to look for the second one suspecting I will not understand it. Be back.
Ciro

kalyangoparaju
kalyangoparaju
0
Joined: 06 Jan 2008, 18:11

Re: Does a tyre produce downforce?

Post

With what ever little knowledge that I have, I have the following hypothesis. Kindly correct me if I am wrong.

When a cylinder is rotated in a clockwise direction with a streamline flow over it, it produces lift ( any aerodynamic text book has it's derivation) . So, as a converse, when the cylinder rotates anti clockwise ( in this case, the tyre of the car), it produces downforce.